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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Jeremy Forrest verdict - aibu to be confused?

999 replies

noddyboulder · 20/06/2013 14:54

Yep, I don't think even his own parents could deny he's a massive, hideous scumbag with no impulse control - but how can he have been found guilty of abduction when the girl he had an affair with said it was her idea to go to France and she went willingly?

Can somebody legal shed some light?

OP posts:
OhDearNigel · 20/06/2013 22:46

For those of you saying "she loves him and freely consented" - this is what the whole grooming process is designed to achieve.

mirry2 · 20/06/2013 22:46

The views on this thread frighten me. No wonder the conviction rate for rape is so low.

AnyFucker · 20/06/2013 22:49

It's terrifying, isn't it mirry2 ?

Blu · 20/06/2013 22:54

"I suppose the jury were instructed to follow the letter of the law, but it seems bizarre to me."

Well, yes, the jury are generally instructed to come to a decision based on the law - it isn't negotiable! that's the point of law.

It's possible that a judge will take all sorts of factors into account at the point of sentencing, but it is a jury's job to decide guilty or not, purely within the context of the law.

scottishmummy · 20/06/2013 22:54

appalled at notion adolescent somehow invited or responsible for this betrayal
the responsible adult,in the responsible role abused his status,access
she was vulnerable self harming.camhs and c&f referral required not him initiating relationship

OhDearNigel · 20/06/2013 23:04

Judge Lawson instructed the jury that the only reasons for which he could be found not guilty would be if they considered his actions necessary to prevent death or serious injury.

LineRunner · 20/06/2013 23:06

So the jury didn't believe him.

Good for the jury. He had masses of other options, other than taking her abroad for sex.

OhDearNigel · 20/06/2013 23:06

Quite Scottish. One would imagine that a teacher, faced with an apparently suicidal student would notify her parents, his head teacher and return her home

What they wouldnt do would drive her to dover in the boot of their car,chuck their phone in the sea, steal their wife's passport, forge a cv and adopt new identities. Not the actions of a man who thinks he's done nothing wrong

OhDearNigel · 20/06/2013 23:08

And to those of you trying to excuse him, would ypu want Jeremy Forrest teaching your 15 year old ?

EhricLovesTeamQhuay · 20/06/2013 23:08

'Forbidden love story' oh my fucking god. This man is a predator. A filthy, abusive, predatory, dangerous, vile cunt who preyed on a vulnerable child to meet his own egotistical emotional needs and sexual impulses. Foul, pathetic creature.

I'm 32. I worked with young people until very recently. Some of them are stunningly gorgeous in the way young people in late adolescence can be. Have I ever considered having sex with any of them? Never. Because I'm a fucking grown up. They are not for me and I am not for them. That's an inviolable rule when you work with vulnerable people, young people especially. A sexual or romantic relationship just does not enter your head. They are normal boundaries. Grooming a child for sex is child abuse. Not romance.

SomeDizzyWhore1804 · 20/06/2013 23:34

Thanks to those who expressed concern for me. I think for me and posters like me it's a really triggering news story but I'm determined to keep trying to get my voice heard because I've been there and I've seen this from the inside.

Those of you saying that the very fact anyone is standing up for this man just justifies the abuse of women are absolutely right. Why is anyone saying he's a victim of a doomed love story or that this is love? You all went to school. You all had teachers- this is far from normal. To get close enough to a young person to do this kind of thing takes ages. Years. Years of crossing a line over and over again, a little bit more each time, until you've wormed your way into the child's affections and gained the child's trust. That's not doomed love, that's a predator thinking about how best to stalk his pray. And it's highly dysfunctional.

The very fact he mouthed "I love you" and she apologised to him across the courtroom only proves the vast imbalance of power in that relationship. I was in a sexual relationship with my teacher from the time I was 16 until I was almost 22. In that time I never once said no to him- about anything. I didn't think I had the right to, because I was a good girl and I'd been brought up to please people in authority. He monopolised on that because he had a huge ego and wanted to be adored as well as being massively selfish. I would bet my eye teeth that Forrest is exactly the same.

FeegleFion · 20/06/2013 23:39

Some of the views on this thread are frightening, like a poster up thread said but what the rest of us must bear in mind is...

...there is so much ignorance here.

It's frightening, yes, but not bloody surprising.

OhDearNigel · 21/06/2013 00:09

And let's not forget his poor wife Emily.

Marriage over. Check
Husband runs off with another woman. Check
Other woman is underage. Check
Other woman is underage and one of his pupils. Check
Husband has shagged underage pupil in your house. Check
Husband steals your passport to try and smuggle underage pupil to France. Check
Frenzied press interest leads to you being forced to delete every single social media site and your business website. Check
Forced to relive the whole sordid, horrific affair in court. Check
Then after you've relived it and your cheating, grooming, pupil-shagging scumbag husband has been found guilty you get the final insult of them mouthing sweet nothings across the courtroom at each other.

There is more than one victim in this case IMO.

OxfordBags · 21/06/2013 00:09

"Forbidden love story"

Yep, forbidden like all paedophilia is forbidden, ffs.

Is this a crime? To paraphrase Charlie Brooker, yes, but only legally, morally and actually...

StuntGirl · 21/06/2013 00:54

Some of the views on this thread are simultaneously disgusting and terrifying. I weep for humanity sometimes.

Toadinthehole · 21/06/2013 01:57

Legal discussion as to why Forrest couldn't be charged with sexual offences here:

legalmattersmag.wordpress.com/news/autumn-12/15-year-old-found-with-mathematics-teacher-in-france/

As I recollect, there was evidence of a sexual relationship before they eloped, but the law relating to extradition prohibited him from being charged.

McGeeDiNozzo · 21/06/2013 03:14

Some pretty awful victim-blaming going on here. There is no excuse for what this guy did.

sashh · 21/06/2013 03:33

Under the Child Abduction Act of 1984, it is a criminal offence in England and Wales for any person connected with a child, to take or send the child out of the United Kingdom without the consent of any other person who has parental responsibility for the child

That's the legal bit.

Are people confusing abduction and kidnap?

1000s of children are abducted by their parents every year, they go willingly.

flippinada · 21/06/2013 07:24

Grin OxfordBags

flippinada · 21/06/2013 07:28

SomeDizzy good for you speaking out. I hope all of this hasn't been too triggering for you.

I really am baffled that people think there's anything sweet and romantic (boak) about this awful situation.

Lazyjaney · 21/06/2013 08:27

"Well, yes, the jury are generally instructed to come to a decision based on the law - it isn't negotiable! that's the point."

Exactly.

Reading this link given above should be a must, for those on both sides of the discussion here, so here it is again.

legalmattersmag.wordpress.com/news/autumn-12/15-year-old-found-with-mathematics-teacher-in-france/

And what the hell were her parents doing about this before they eventually ran off - IMO a lot more attention should be focussed on that area.

flippinada · 21/06/2013 08:43

I have seen the smirk (front page of the Metro). Ugh.

SomeDizzyWhore1804 · 21/06/2013 08:57

OxfordBags that Charlie Brooker quote is BRILLIANT. I wish I had said it.

flippinada thank you for your concern. The news story is triggering and very upsetting, not just for me but I know for other posters who can't be as involved in the debate because of the stage they're at in getting over their own teacher/student abuse. It happened to me more than ten years ago now and whilst it would be inaccurate to say I am over it (because I don't think I ever will be- he was my first relationship and first sexual relationship, so inevitably it leaves its mark) I am lucky enough to be at a stage where I have had (and am having) therapy and have a loving and supportive husband.

My worry is that I don't think a lot of people understand quite the dynamics of a romantic/sexual relationship that is as imbalanced as this. It isn't just that he has abused his position of trust, but as I said earlier in the thread, that she will feel entirely that she can't say no to him. When he mouthed "I love you" across the courtroom, what he was really saying was "this is your fault and you owe me". The fact that she said sorry only strengthens that. My own teacher/abuser used to tell me that when it all came out I would be in as much trouble as he was and that my family and friends would hate and turn against me. I was a very intelligent 16 year old who logically knew that this wasn't true, but that didn't stop me from believing him. For the girl in the Forrest case it is likely that he told her this and that she now feels not only that she is in as much trouble as him, but also probably blames herself. The fact that he is still keeping her hanging only proves that the abuse is ongoing.

Based on the evidence that she gave in court it also has to be faced that at some point he crossed the line and had sex with her and managed to make her believe that it was her fault or her responsibility that they were having sex. If it was anything like what happened to me then he did all the running sexually, right up until the act of intercourse when he said he "couldn't do it" and then she had to step in and say she wanted it. To his mind then he would be absolved of all responsibility. I am not saying for one second that she didn't want to have sex with him- I definitely and completely wanted to have sex with my teacher/abuser- but I was in love with him and I was 16. I didn't know what sex entailed and I certainly didn't know what sex with a 30+ year old man entailed. This isn't innocent Romeo and Juliet fumblings that are what pass as most peoples first sexual encounters.

I also think that you need to face just how much lying Forrest did. I am a teacher myself now and to get to the point where you can have sex with a pupil you need to have broken so many rules and lied to so many people. In fact, to get to the point where you can be alone with a pupil is difficult enough. This wasn't a quick thing, he will have been planning this and scheming and coming up with lies and excuses for a long time. That level of cunning is nothing short of grooming, not just a passion that overcame him and that he was powerless to resist.

I know that this has been mentioned too, but if it was really love, if he loved her, he wouldn't have put her through being in court and testifying. He would have told her to not be there and not have to face the glare of publicity and scrutiny of the prosecuting counsel. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if he loved her what he would have done is have sorted out his own shit, got out of his marriage and waited a couple of years until she was 18. The relationship still, in my opinion, would not have been a healthy one, but it would have proven a moral and professional integrity that is woefully absent here. Good God, he didn't even have the self control to wait until she was legally old enough to have sex!

And lastly, I want to pose the question about his maturity levels. I have been 15 and 16 and know how strong your feelings can be. When I was 16 I was swept up in the drama of it all... I thought I was in a novel. But life has a way of sobering you up, and now in my late twenties I know I couldn't be as easily coaxed into drama again. My teacher/abuser and Forrest are/were both adult men in their 30s, not sixth formers. If you are writing soppy love songs to 15 year old girls, getting your ego boosted by the attentions of 15 year old girls and thinking running away is the answer to your problems then you have the maturity levels and sense of a sixth former. And whilst it is no crime to be immature, it is a recipe for disaster when you are putting someone with that level of immaturity and recklessness in charge of teenagers with all their silliness and hormones. Teenagers don't know what's best for them... if they did then they wouldn't need us telling them to do their homework, revise and tidy their rooms. Teachers are extensions of parents in the regard that part of our job is to tell kids what to do. That is a lot of influence and the teacher/student dynamic works on the basis that the teacher has good intentions and isn't out for their own ends.

Sorry for the epic post, but to those of you saying this a "forbidden love story" Jeez, go back to your Twilight novels and stop defending a rapist. Once you've walked a mile in my shoes and the shoes of millions of others who have been victims to this kind of abuse then maybe you might feel differently.

soverylucky · 21/06/2013 08:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SomeDizzyWhore1804 · 21/06/2013 09:00

Oh, and I meant to add, I didn't identify myself as a victim of abuse until I was in my mid twenties and had therapy after a nervous breakdown. That's the hold he had over me. I thought that it was just a relationship gone sour for years. Facing up to the fact that I was even a victim was a long way down the line for me.