Jeremy Forrest verdict - aibu to be confused?

[noddyboulder]

Yep, I don't think even his own parents could deny he's a massive, hideous scumbag with no impulse control - but how can he have been found guilty of abduction when the girl he had an affair with said it was her idea to go to France and she went willingly?

Can somebody legal shed some light?

[LittlePeaPod]

Lazy & Larry are you actually saying you would be comfortable with your 14/15 year old daughters teacher sleeping with her?

[flippinada]

Just to let everyone who may be interested know that I've had a response from the police regarding the FB page linked to above.

[larrygrylls]

LittlePea,

Please read my posts and draw your own conclusion? It is a relatively simple exercise in English comprehension. However, I will offer you some hints:

a/ In my posts, have I said the teacher needs to take responsibility for his actions?

b/ Have I said that he needs to be punished and/or that he should be allowed to work with children again?

And, now for the extension question:

c/ Do you understand the difference between a defence in law and a sentence mitigation argument?

[LittlePeaPod]

Larry you have no idea whether or not that poor girls mother brought up with the same values you speak of. There are no mitigating circumstances that can justify a grown man (even worse in a position of responsibility) grooming a 14 year old child in his care. Particularly one that clearly has emotional issues. Your position on this seems to indicate that you wouldn't really have an issues with a 30 year old female teacher entering into a sexual relationship with one of your boys when thye are 14/15 as long as your boys and the teacher say "it's love" and we couldn't control our emotions....

It's the adult that is in a position of power. It's the adult that has the control and should/must put a stop to this before it goes further. If they are incapable of self control then they know the consequences... You do the crime and you do the time.... Maybe you should have a look at the link one of the posters on here has set up in relationships.. Look how this sort of issue actually affects these children.

[larrygrylls]

LittlePea,

I am afraid I am going to make you resit your English comprehension test. To make it easier, though, I will quote to you directly from my first post on this thread:

"Jeremy Forrest is immature and abused his position. He should go to jail and not be allowed to be in a position responsibility with children again."

[noddyholder]

sassh i think by saying he knew it was wrong when you can't possibly is almost apologetic. He is a sick f'er who deserves longer.

[flippinada]

I think there can be no debate over the term sex offender so why not use that instead.

Libby Purves attitude isn't surprising either, she's published articles like this. before.

[DownstairsMixUp]

Consent age lowered to 15? No way! The school leaving age is going up now, so if anything, shouldn't it be going the other way? You use the term "some" 15 year olds. So why should it be lowered? Then there would be no protection for the ones that are vulnerable!

As well I am young enough to remember what I was like when I was 15 (it was 11 years ago) and me and my circle of friends were def no way near ready for sex, relationships. We'd all had a snog with boyfriends and were still at the stage of being curious about it, but far too young to act upon it, so there would be no laws to protect us then if some weirdo teacher like Forrest wanted to use his sexual urges for teenage girls on us.

Also a lot of girls at 15 aren't even physically developed. Two of my friends didn't even get first periods till they were 16 and looked very very young till around 17 when they suddenly blossmed! Lowering the age would just cause more problems IMO. The majority of fifteen year olds are not ready for real adult relationships.

[sashh]

Larry

But it is black and white. I'm a teacher and it is part of the job that you do not let yourself get into a situation where you could be accused of impropriety.

If a student has a crush on you then you have a legal and moral duty to do everything you can to stop it. You certainly do not start giving that student 1-1 tuition.

If you have to have a 1-1 session you do it with other people present.

You do not text the student, you do not phone them.

The onus is absolutely on the adult. The blame is with the adult. That is part of teaching, that is what we all sign up to and the vast majority stick to it.

IMHO the school should have done more, but the fault is completely with Forrest.

This child has been groomed. She has been brainwashed into thinking he loves her and that she is special.

If you love someone you don't:

force them to reveal their entire sexual history in court for it to be reported

take them out of the country if they are suicidal, you get them medical help

lie to their parents to cover your tracks

have sex when they are a child

[Dawndonna]

Here the discussion has been taken over by a small number of repetitive posters who hector anyone who doesn't fall into their fairly narrow black/white view.
Yes, it's interesting isn't it, the number of women on the thread who have been abused, by men in a position of power, including teachers who are hectoring others with their views.
Or maybe it's just sadness and bitter experience.
Two things that you have done with that statement, Lazy one, using the word 'hector' to describe the majority view on this thread demonstrates a clear wish not to discuss but to shut down the discussion.
Two, using the same word either marginalises or dismisses the experience of the women brave enough to share their experiences.

[runningforthebusinheels]

The Law also recognises a power imbalance between teachers/pupils, doctors/psychiatrists and patients for a very good reason. The age of consent has nothing to do with that.

[LittlePeaPod]

Larry. I really understand that you are attempting to sound clever, particularly in using the condescending language... Although what it actually does is make you sound childish and that sort of language tends to wash over me. Please carry on if it helps you though..

My point to you is clear.. Jeremy deserves every day of that sentence and anything less would be a crime. Anyone that thinks its too harsh is making excuses for a teacher that groomed a child..

Flippinada. Good point. I will refer to him as the sex offender from here on since his now register as such and a Sexual Offences Prevention Order imposed on him

[noblegiraffe]

What actions should the victim 'take responsibility for' and how do people who say this think that she should be taking responsibilty for them?

I can't see a point where she was actually in control here.

[flippinada]

The age of consent debate is a bit of a red herring (yes I know I've said it before).

JF was in a position of trust which he abused and in any case there are laws around teacher pupil which make the effective age of consent 18.

I'd also be interested to know what people who are (unfairly) attacking the girls mum make of the FB page JF's family have created, where they encourage an underage girl to write to him?

[DownstairsMixUp]

I've seen the facebook page for supporting him, you'll all be pleased to know it only has 73 likes but it's got a status with the parents address saying under 18's should send letters to them and people supporting the "relationship" it made me a bit ragey.

[larrygrylls]

LittlePea,

"My point to you is clear.. Jeremy deserves every day of that sentence and anything less would be a crime. Anyone that thinks its too harsh is making excuses for a teacher that groomed a child.. "

And if the sentence had been 20 years and I argued it was harsh, would that still be making excuses? Is no punishment too harsh for Forrest in your perspective?

You can condemn and treat with nuance at the same time and believe that not all crimes deserve the harshest sentence possible.

[merrymouse]

The reason we are 'so hysterical' about sex is that it does have consequences, whether those are emotional, pregnancy or STDs.

[runningforthebusinheels]

"nuance"

There is no nuance. He was a teacher in a position of responsibility over a troubled teenager. He groomed her, lied to her mother, took her to France on his wife's passport and then got her to lie in court.

[flippinada]

Yep that's the one that's been reported. It made me (and quite a few others) ragey too.

[LittlePeaPod]

And if the sentence had been 20 years and I argued it was harsh, would that still be making excuses? Is no punishment too harsh for Forrest in your perspective?

Actually good question. In my opinion, there isn't a harsh enough sentence for sex offenders. I really dont think the UK is tough enough particularly in relation to child sex offenders. Child abuse is one of the most despicable crimes. I put it right up there with murder, rape, human trafficking and the lot... Sex offenders need to be treated as such and excuses should not be made for them. Well unless people think there is a scale/degree of child child abuse that is acceptable to them..

[runningforthebusinheels]

I'd go for 20yrs too. Call me vindictive - I seem to have a low tolerance level for sex offenders and groomers.

20yrs might be time enough for the victim to extricate herself from the influence of his family - who seemed to have taken over the grooming from where Forrest left it.

[merrymouse]

Personally I would have given him 5 years for the lying to his wife and nicking her passport so he could run off with the OW. Not sure what the sentence is for passport fraud, but I think that action in itself puts paid to any idea that he's just a nice guy who fell in love with the wrong person.

[larrygrylls]

LittlePea,

Fair enough, it is a perspective, though not mine.

You clearly imagine there is a rubicon on a child's 16th birthday when having sex with them goes, in that particular infinitesimal moment of time, from being a despicable crime where no sentence is too harsh to not being a crime at all. I am quite curious as to what you think actually happens at midnight on that birthday?

And it would not be a crime at all in most of Europe, but here is one of the most despicable crimes that one can imagine, comparable with murder (?!) (I am talking here hypothetically of sex with a 15 year old minor, not where someone has a particular position of responsibility).

So, sorry, yes, I do think it is a scale.