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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think homeopaths really just make money out of the gullible?

999 replies

WidowWadman · 08/06/2013 20:59

A remedy made from diluted bits of the Berlin Wall - seriously, that's surely just a test to find out how far they can push it, isn't?

OP posts:
Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 10:58

Don't give a shit laQueen? You were curled into a ball, crying and biting your fists earlier. Have you calmed down now?

saintlyjimjams · 15/06/2013 10:58

Not a homeopath in sight.

aladdinsane · 15/06/2013 11:01

Spero - that is what is driving me nuts about the whole thread and is very typical of homeopathy and similar
No-one is arguing that modern medicine is not without its problems, I would like it all to be not for profit
The problems of greed and individuals making a packet out of it are the same in alt medicine though
But the tests and studies that have to be taken by scientists and then homeopaths come along with claims based on nothing but belief and magic

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:02

Ellie: Any chance of a sensible discussion was over the very second that you announced that conventional medicine rarely cures anything, crumbled.

No - I think that came with the abuse and the insults and sarcasm and the plain fear of debate that started long before. And by the way - did you manage to find a cure for anything? Other than the ones that I've mentioned? I don't believe you did. I'm still waiting for that long, long, long list Ellie which you have failed to provide. Of course it's always easier to provide insults and abuse isn't it?

You must be absolutely terrified of homeopathy to lash out the way you do.

You should be ashamed of yourself writing what you just did. Does anybody on this thread support this kind of posting? Hands up everyone one who supports what I was just called by this person's post.

saintlyjimjams · 15/06/2013 11:06

I have been doing some work for Macmillan recently & it's not unusual for patients to be given a choice. Sometimes they're told the 5 year survival rate with chemo/radio is this, without it's this - and the difference may be very small / especially when the treatments are being used post surgery in a belt & braces approach. And it is a decision left entirely up to them.

As no-one appears to have been criticised in PM's case it may well be that there was no clear treatment plan - it happens. The only person she criticised was the oncologist.

As I said before homeopathic training includes a course learning about the symptoms that would advise a trip to a GP. What homeopaths cannot then do is force anyone to attend a doctor or take medical treatments (not can any doctor come to that - and most don't try - they advise). If a homeopath advises someone to not see a doctor or to reject medical advice they are breaking their own rules. There is a difference between supporting someone who has made their own decision not to accept treatment & influencing someone who is undecided. The second case is very rare - as I said before that list of supposedly many cases didn't even seem to include a single homeopath.

EllieArroway · 15/06/2013 11:20

Can't take it? Don't like it? Really? Wouldn't that be a little - um - hypocritical?

Coming from someone who refused to talk to me on the basis of a couple of vaguely sarcastic posts, this is extraordinary. You're quite something.

And by the way - did you manage to find a cure for anything?

Er...a hysterectomy cured my mother of cancer. She'd have died without one. The removal of my left fallopian tube cured me of the internal bleeding I was suffering from an ectopic pregnancy.

Antibiotics CURE people of pneumonia and septicaemia every day.

You are quite astonishingly dim - and YES, you are a hypocrite. You use conventional medicine and wouldn't hesitate to do so, but you think that it's useless, causes more harm than good and everyone else should be using "medicines" that have BEEN PROVEN NOT TO WORK.

That is called hypocrisy. Don't like being called a hypocrite - then stop being one.

EllieArroway · 15/06/2013 11:22

You were given a list, from me and other people. You took no notice.

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:23

Ellie: that's surgery. Homeopathy doesn't even venture into that world or make any claims about it. That's like saying I got cured of a broken leg by a cast. If you want to misrepresent like that - if you have to do that to make a point - go ahead. Empty argument.

And apart from antibiotics, which I believe I mentioned a long, long, long time ago?

You are quite astonishingly dim - and YES, you are a hypocrite. Mind if I quote you? of course I don't apply it to myself. And don't look too far for who I am applying it to, Ellie.

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:25

You use conventional medicine and wouldn't hesitate to do so, but you think that it's useless, causes more harm than good and everyone else should be using "medicines" that have BEEN PROVEN NOT TO WORK.

this is such a damned set of lies

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:27

You took no notice.

Another lie. I took notice - I pointed out how none of it involved "curing" apart form anti-biotics.

EllieArroway · 15/06/2013 11:30

Oh - I see. Your a proponent of "Big Placebo". No doubt this is where you're getting your ill-informed opinions from:

The current system teaches disease management and symptom suppression, which is insufficient to meet our healthcare needs. A reformed system needs a new paradigm that stresses health promotion and treatments that attempt to correct the underlying causes of disease

"Dr" John Neustadt.

I can't better this response:

To hear them tell it, American medicine cures nothing. It simply manages disease and suppresses symptoms. It is a measure of the astounding success of the American medical system that anyone could seriously contemplate such nonsense. American medicine cures so much disease, involving so many people, so reliably and so often that everyone takes it for granted

Evidently American Medicine doesn?t cure anything except ? tuberculosis, pneumonia, bacterial meningitis, gonorrhea, any bacterial illness you care to name. American medicine routinely cures previously deadly conditions like appendicitis, ectopic pregnancies and obstetric hemorrhage. Better yet, it can completely prevent many viral and bacterial scourges through vaccination. It?s not a coincidence that American lifespan has increased from 48 years to 77.7 years in slightly more than a century. Much of what routinely killed Americans is now routinely cured

In fact, cure is so routine that these illnesses rarely enter American consciousness. No one worries about dying from tertiary syphilis, diphtheria or rheumatic heart disease. Those diseases are routinely prevented or cured in their early stages

And ?disease management? is hardly a deficiency, either. Some diseases cannot yet be cured. Until the day that a cure is discovered, we manage those diseases. Juvenile (type I) diabetes was uniformly fatal until the discovery of insulin. Insulin doesn?t cure diabetics; it merely allows them to live an addition 50 years or more. Instead of dying in childhood, type I diabetics routinely live to have and enjoy grandchildren. Such ?disease management? is worthy of praise, not the contempt that Big Placebo attempts to heap on it.

Can we do better? Of course we can, particularly in the areas of chronic diseases caused by smoking and alcohol abuse. However, that?s a far cry from claiming that American Medicine doesn?t cure disease. That cynical and disingenuous claim should be understood for what it is, Big Placebo?s attempt to line its own pockets. Alternative health purveyors and practitioners are charlatans and quacks ? and dishonest

www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/big-placebo-says-medicine-never-cures-anything/

Grow up, Crumbled.

curlew · 15/06/2013 11:31

So apart from surgery, painkillers and antibiotics, what has medicine ever done for me?

Well, my MIL, who is bipolar, is able to lead an happy and normal life (that is without taking all her clothes off and trying to accost the postman or trying to fling herself off bridges) because she takes a range of "drugs". My godson hasn't had an epileptic fit since he started taking the right medication. My mother's eyesight was preserved by eye drops for her glaucoma. When I was pregnant, drugs controlled my sky rocketing blood pressure long enough for my baby to grow big enough to survive. Oh, and my favourite cat lived three happy years on pills to control his kidney failure.

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:32

No doubt this is where you're getting your ill-informed opinions from

Another lie - I've never seen that before in my life.

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:34

Curlew - in what way does any of your post refute my position that modern drug therapy is involved in control and management rather than cure?

In what way, exactly, does it not prove it word for word?

Do you know what a cure is? Do either of you?

EllieArroway · 15/06/2013 11:35

What's the "lie". That homeopathy has been proven not to work - or that you would use conventional medicine?

CURE (definition): To relieve a person of the symptoms of a disease or condition.

On this basis - millions upon millions of people have been and are being "cured".

And you expect anyone to take seriously your fucking stupid claim that no one is ever cured of anything?

I'm done. Even talking to you is demeaning to me.

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:38

You use conventional medicine and wouldn't hesitate to do so

this is a lie

but you think that it's useless

this is a lie

causes more harm than good

this is a lie - I've said it causes massive harm - can you deny this or not deny it? You would really, really struggle to deny it and many anti-homeopaths have been obliged on this thread to agree

you think everyone else should be using "medicines" that have BEEN PROVEN NOT TO WORK

this is a lie

HTH

curlew · 15/06/2013 11:38

Oh!

You're saying that modern medicine is useless because it doesn't necessarily make things to away forever! So what do you suggest my MIL, for example, does? There isn't a "magic bullet" for her condition, no. Is there a homeopathic remedy that is?

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:39

You're saying that modern medicine is useless

a lie

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:40

Stop with the lies and misrepresentation. Just ... stop. Is it possible? Are you too frightened to stop?

EllieArroway · 15/06/2013 11:41

That's like saying I got cured of a broken leg by a cast

Er, yes. That's what "cure" means. Do you have any idea how incredibly stupid you sound?

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:41

Even talking to you is demeaning to me.

Exactly the way I feel - time in my life I'll never get back.

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:41

You said you were done Ellie. D
Do you have any idea how incredibly stupid you sound?
Right back at you.

exexpat · 15/06/2013 11:47

Modern medicine (chemotherapy) can now cure about 90% of childhood leukemia cases health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/03/12/childhood-leukemia-survival-rates-reach-90-percent. It's a shame it isn't 100% yet, and there are occasional cases where it recurs after the 5 year remission period which is essentially regarded as being cured, but not so long ago nearly all those children would have died.

The same is true of many other cancers, eg a friend of mine whose lymphoma was cured a couple of decades ago - she is still going strong, not taking any medication - cured by any reasonable definition.

exexpat · 15/06/2013 11:48

Has homeopathy ever been proven to 'cure' anything?

Crumbledwalnuts · 15/06/2013 11:49

Ellie: Clearly, crumbled is the usual clueless internet warrior who has no earthly idea how science actually works

a lie

and doesn't care to find out

a lie