to think homeopaths really just make money out of the gullible?

[WidowWadman]

A remedy made from diluted bits of the Berlin Wall - seriously, that's surely just a test to find out how far they can push it, isn't?

Conventional medicine never fails though does it?

Of course it does. I banged on about it's failings above.

One slight diff though.

I would not try and diminish a doctor's negligence or failures by saying your brother in law made his choice to use medical professionals so

I think your brother in law matters, his untimely and avoidable death matters and the actions that caused his desth should have light shone on them and not brushed under the carpet.

I think it matters that somebody died becuase a doctor had crap ethics, or overestimated their abilities, or plain old screwed up. I think they should face the consequences, I think their colleagues at large should use cases in M&M conferences to learn from it to avoid the same events repeating themselves.

Oh I'm wrong, he didn't devise his own treatment he used Gerson therapy which was initially written about in the fifties. But anyway he refused the conventional advice he was given.

I'm not sure she even used homeopathy

Does it really make any diff which alt med she went for ? Honestly ?

Bearing in mind how ill she was?

A few might go for nothing. I'm asking you if you honestly believe it would be in the same numbers. If you honestly believe that the existance of homeopathy et al, and the things they say about "allopathic" medecine play no part in people's choices that lead to harm or death ?

Of course it makes a difference if she's included on a list 'proving' how dangerous homeopaths are (which doesn't seem to include a single homeopath but does include a GP and a dentist).

I posted this way earlier in the thread but here it is again

Penelope Dingle

The first youtube clip is particularly interesting

What do any of the pro-homeopathy people on the thread think of this project: www.homeopathyforhealthinafrica.org which promotes homeopathy to treat Aids?

Or the widespread homeopathic advice on preventing malaria? Eg hpathy.com/homeopathy-papers/the-use-of-homeopathic-prophylaxis-and-treatment-for-malaria-in-endemic-areas-of-kenya/

Do you not find them irresponsible, verging on criminal?

I don't know anything about the AIDS project you linked to there. But I do know quite a bit about one run in Botswana. In Botswana the govt provides free antiretrovirals once the viral load reaches a certain level (I'm not sure that this is the case in all African countries - Botswana is relatively rich from diamonds). The homeopaths work alongside medical clinics. So people will visit the clinics for their retrovirals and then go to the homeopath. Many of the patients also use traditional African medicine. I went to a talk on the project and the homeopath described how she persuaded someone who was reluctant to use new fangled western medicine to take his antiretrovirals. So I certainly had no problems with that at all. The homeopaths also did things like make home visits and sit with people when they were dying (medical staff couldn't do this, it as too remote and they were too overwhelmed). It's a successful project because it works with local doctors. I would see this as essential to any project really.

Again, you praise the homeopaths for displaying humane and compassionate qualities.

That's lovely.

But they still believe in, advocate for and sell water as a medicinal aid. That is not.

Well I'll praise anyone really who will volunteer to sit with the dying in Africa (unpaid). These are all volunteers btw so not costing Botswana anything and not selling anything.

Repeating another earlier post:

The average life expectancy in Sub-Saharan Africa is 30 years less than that of the developed world. This represents a humanitarian problem of immense proportion that will take much wealth, effort and ingenuity to solve. It requires the production and dispersal of life saving medicines and the cooperation of the United Nations health agencies and often unstable governments. What it does not need is are homeopaths from Europe and America whose persistent delusions, and idiotic confidence, can and will kill.
gimpyblog.wordpress.com/category/jeremy-sherr/
Homeopaths like this one
Whose acolytes promote him and fundraise on the BBC

Again, lovely that they are prepared to do that. But so do many other noble and selfless volunteers who are not homeopaths.

The Kray twins were very nice to their old mum so I am told. You can be a sweet, lovely person and still be a dangerous crackpot. These qualities are not mutually exclusive.

This is how homeopathy bigshot Jeremy Sherr and his followers promote homeopathy in Africa

"Homeopathy is the only one
The only medicine that God wants"

FFS

I can't comment on that organisation because I don't know enough about it (in the newspaper article the organisation are quoted as saying they don't tell people to stop using drugs).

I know more about the project in botswana - their website is very clear that main treatment is antiretrovirals and homeopathy is used to treat side effects. www.homeopathybotswana.com/why-maun/ They also say it is not a cure, can be used safely alongside conventional medicine and will not interfere with their actions. And they're not charging anything. So I don't really see much to complain about tbh. It's how the homeopaths I have seen work, and it how I think they should work. I wouldn't have an issue with - don't know - shiatsu practitioners doing the same. It's how you work with the local organisations on the ground that is important imo.

Sorry, link

Paul Merton's wife, interview for Pink Ribbon prior to death...

She hopes to beat the cancer with the help of acupuncture, spiritual healing, homeopathy and swimming in the sea near her East Sussex home.
She is also trying Johrei, a Japanese therapy which aims to build up the immune system.
The couple regularly drink carrot and broccoli juices and have cut wheat, dairy produce and meat from their diet.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-140842/Mertons-wife-Ill-cure-cancer-natural-way.html

Paul travels with me to London for acupuncture, for spiritual healing, for visits to the Royal London homeopathic hospital

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2003/sep/26/health.lifeandhealth

Spero - I'm not really understanding the link between the Kray twins being nice to their mum and homeopaths. Do you object to healers or shiatsu practitioners or acupuncturists (for example) working for free or just homeopaths?

Well the Royal London homeopathic hospital is staffed by doctors rather than homeopaths.

I was pointing out that you can be nice - sit and talk to dying people, be kind to your old mum - and also be a complete lunatic - believe water has a memory etc or you like to nail people's heads to pub floors.

Just found this on my twitter feed from Jon Ronson's cousin.

evolve2solve.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/double-take-on-john-diamonds-take-on-alternative-medicine/

What I found very interesting was the following comment, after Rowena graciously allows John Diamond to have views about alternative 'medicine'.

As alterative health practitioners, it is easy to buy into the paradigm of cancer being a matter of choice and that with a positive attitude, a revamped diet and a natural choice of medicine, good health can be restored. With someone suffering from cancer, who has tried some alternatives, who has not responded, and is working against the clock: who are we to say that they have taken the wrong decision for their health? Who are we to say that we would not feel that alternative medicine had failed us, and that it doesn?t work? Who are we to say that we would do any different?

So this IS the paradigm of the homeopaths - that my cancer is a choice?

Fuck you homeopaths. Seriously, fuck you. And anyone else who has given up on rational thought.

The Royal London btw also offers acupuncture and a whole range of other alternative therapies. Paul didn't mention homeopathy when she died. He said "She refused chemotherapy because she knew it would finish her off. Instead, she boosted her immune system with a mixture of nutritional therapy, yoga, meditation, positive thinking and laughter."

So it's not entirely clear what she had, and if she was travelling to the Royal London she was being seen in clinics run by doctors.

Do you object to healers or shiatsu practitioners or acupuncturists (for example) working for free or just homeopaths?

All of the above. And faith healers. Or people with another agenda that motives an outwardly nice act masking a self interested core.

Has your homeopath never said a word against medecine ?

Never called it a pejorative term like "allopathic" ?

If so I can understand to some extent why you don't believe hand holding with an alt med agenda is a problem.

I object to anyone who preys on the weak and the vulnerable, who uses their desparation to make money.

And yup, I think a lot of homeopaths fall into that category.

I read it as her saying the complete opposite. That it's easy to be unrealistic as a CAM practitioner and that they shouldn't be so arrogant as to pass judgment. (I'd run a mile from one that did tbh, I don't think that would be typical).

Boosted her immune system with laughter??!!?

For real?

funny how my oncologist didn't tell me to slap on another episode of modern family if my temperature started rising when my neutrophil levels dropped dangerously low. Er no he told me to get to hospital and take lots of anti biotics.

I am going to bed now as this is just making me cross. Wake me up when you have the results of the homeopaths' rigourously conducted trials on how laughter raises your neutrophil levels during chemotherapy.

Paul didn't mention homeopathy when she died

But she did. Before she died. Before she knew she would die. When she thought she would get better.

Put it another way. Bearing in mine she chose alt med, bearing in mind she turned her back on medicine, bearing in mind the hosptial she was attending, the chances of nobody suggesting it are nil.

Looking at all that do you really believe her response would be, "nah, that's mumbo jumbo that homeopathy"