to think homeopaths really just make money out of the gullible?

[WidowWadman]

A remedy made from diluted bits of the Berlin Wall - seriously, that's surely just a test to find out how far they can push it, isn't?

"Am I actually talking to a person who is apparently arguing that modern medicine causes more harm than good?" No - but it does cause a hell of a lot more harm than homeopathy.

As I've said before conventional medicine saves lives, I've yet to see homeopathy save lives, it does no harm because it does no good.

'but it does cause a hell of a lot more harm than homeopathy.'

Tell that to someone who has overwhelming septicaemia, a heart attack, a dissecting aorta.

"It does no good" - oh yes it does.

"Tell that to someone who has overwhelming septicaemia, a heart attack, a dissecting aorta." It doesn't matter what straw man arguments you come up with, it does cause a hell of a lot more harm than homeopathy.

No - but it does cause a hell of a lot more harm than homeopathy

I don't accept that. You are making a deeply flawed comparison.

That's exactly the same as saying - well, chemotherapy sometimes kills people who are being treated for cancer, while reading their auras never does. So reading the aura of a cancer patient is safer than giving them chemotherapy. That is what you're saying.

Modern medicine CURES & ALLEVIATES very, very often. Not always, of course - but often enough that it makes the whole endeavour worthwhile.

Homeopathy NEVER does, unless it's something minor and self-limiting. And we know why - because it's proven bullshit.

I have seen your link re: polio and I will have a proper read & research tomorrow as I don't have time now (not ignoring it, in other words).

it does no harm because it does no good

Yes. Yes. Yes.

It does no harm....because it DOES NOTHING. Praying to the FSM does no harm either.

But the three senarios where we have established it's value would not apply in the above, would they?

Be careful: you are moving dangerously close to the claim someone said you weren't making earlier. That the "good" is worth the sacrifice of the "harm". It isn't Ellie. Come back and say that when you've done a little more research into the harm: count the number of deaths, the amount of damage, and come back and say that.

It's not a flawed comparison - it's a flat statement of truth, and modern medicine, by the way, rarely cures.

Homeopathy often DOES alleviate - how, who knows, but by harnessing the power of the body's own immune system through placebo and attention - but it certainly does.

You seem to be lashing out somewhat with phrases like "proven bullshit". Maybe time to step away and come back when you've read up some stuff.

See this is the mistake, the idea that it does nothing. The frustration and the inability and unwillingness to accept that it does something, we just don't know what. You can't control it so you hate it, frankly.

But in the overall scenario, it does more harm than homeopathy, doesn't it?

'and modern medicine, by the way, rarely cures. '

There is no point in arguing with such a deluded state of mind.

I haveasked you for a list of diseases cured by modern medicine, Dystopia. Do enlighten me.

www.wfsj.org/news/news.php?id=258

Want something else to get cross about in Africa?

Crumbledwalnuts, I got your post muddled up with Venus's one about being a scientist, but you appear to be mixing me up with Binkybix so I guess we're even

Yeah! Poor binkybix!

Can I just be clear: crumble - are you claiming that the medical world has caused more harm to human-kind than good?

health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/rare/12-deadly-diseases-cured-in-the-20th-century11.htm

Perhaps I can get you started. None of these disease are cured by modern medicine, despite the exciting title.

(The most effective treatment available under modern medicine is penicillin, a treatment discovered, not invented, and which we are rapidly throwing away by over-prescription.)

Oh dear Binky do keep up.

Crumbledwalnuts Mon 10-Jun-13 15:11:28
"Am I actually talking to a person who is apparently arguing that modern medicine causes more harm than good?" No - but it does cause a hell of a lot more harm than homeopathy.

Wow, you're rude crumble.

At least I can keep track enough to not attribute posts incorrectly.

Well, we've talked about the role of antibiotics in curing infection.

Some childhood leukaemias can be cured.

TB can be cured

Many people are surviving various cancers, that is, they are diagnosed, treated and survive. That is a cure in my book.

Teratomas (testicular cancers) have a very high cure rate. Given the balance of probability, I would opt for treatment and possible cure over homeopathy.

Many many illnesses can be cured these days that could not in bygone days. That is the progression of conventional medicine applied with a robust evidence base behind it.
Of course, it doesn't always work, but that is no reason to eschew it. We are continually making headway.

I live in Africa and am rather cross that ARVs are not available to the millions who desperately need them due to unaffordability and government ignorance. It is way too easy (and dangerous) to take modern medicine for granted. Here for many it is still a luxury!

Well that's what I'm saying gals, it works for me and others, so we haven't figured out how it works for me and others, have we?

Maybe you don't know many scientists, but I do, and they also haven't a clue how the homeopathy they take works for them either.

It's a challenge isn't it? Can you get your heads around it?!

Ah, yes, I forgot to add AIDS

But venus what kind of scientist are you? Do you agree that science should be guided by the principle of falsifiability? If so, how can you believe in homeopathy? Maybe you mean you are a pseudoscientist.

I see Venus still isn't telling us what kind of scientist she is. I'm beginning to wonder if she's one of the people in white coats on make-up counters who spoutslots of pseudo-scientific jargon to make you buy expensive moisturiser.

Maybe you don't know many scientists, but I do, and they also haven't a clue how the homeopathy they take works for them either.

Well, here are a few suggestions:
Placebo effect
Regression to the mean
Self-limiting illness
Incorrect original diagnosis
Magic water

Why would any self-respecting scientist plump for the last suggestion?

Remember, homeopathy works on the principle that 'like cures like' so if you want to cure asthma, you find something that causes problems breathing. Except giving something that causes problems breathing would be bad, so you don't give it. You take your poison and put the equivalent of a drop of it into an ocean of water, stir it all up, take a drop out of the ocean, bottle it and take that instead.
Even before you get to the ridiculous dilution bit, why would a poison that causes breathing problems cure breathing problems???

I also wonder what crumbledwalnuts would do if she was diagnosed with, say, type 1 diabetes, or lymphoma, or HIV- accept the risk of possible harm from modern medicine, or take some sugar pills because they can't hurt her - except for the small matter of allowing her to die from lack of effective treatment?