to think homeopaths really just make money out of the gullible?

[WidowWadman]

A remedy made from diluted bits of the Berlin Wall - seriously, that's surely just a test to find out how far they can push it, isn't?

"Be careful: you are moving dangerously close to the claim someone said you weren't making earlier. That the "good" is worth the sacrifice of the "harm". It isn't Ellie. Come back and say that when you've done a little more research into the harm: count the number of deaths, the amount of damage, and come back and say that."

Crumbledwalnuts Mon 10-Jun-13 15:11:28
"Am I actually talking to a person who is apparently arguing that modern medicine causes more harm than good?" No - but it does cause a hell of a lot more harm than homeopathy.

At the risk of you being unnecessarily sarcastic towards me again, can I ask a genuine question about the two quotes from you which are above crumble?

You seem to agree that modern medicine has done more good than harm (quote 2) but also seem to be saying that despite this it's not worth doing because it does some harm.

If you agree that on balance it's done good, why don't you think it's worth taking some harm for more good. I genuinely don't understand your logic on this (or why this issue means people should not discuss homeopathy).

Sorry - bold fail on second quote.

Well, I'm a biologist and I know loads and loads of scientist and I have yet to find a homeopathy believer amongst them. But science isn't a poll, it doesn't matter how many are for or against it, it comes down to who has the better arguments and data to support their arguments. I can't see homeopathy providing the reasoning and the data to make me change my mind any time soon.

If modern medicine did more harm than good, then why is their published paper after paper demonstrating that patients with say, cancer, survive by being treated and die faster if they're not treated? Genuinely curious.

But in the overall scenario, it does more harm than homeopathy, doesn't it?

Not necessarily if you look at net effects - ie both could do harm and good. Modern medicine could do more harm in absolute terms (because its used more, actually has active agents etc etc) but still have a much greater net benefit because it does a hell of a lot more good too.

Forgot to add to my list of suggestions of why homeopathy works:

Success of other intervention incorrectly attributed to homeopathy

E.g. My rash went away as soon as I took the pills and switched washing powder

Maybe you don't know many scientists, but I do

My sister has a PhD in a scientific ology. Her husband has a degree in sicence and was a sicence teacher at secondary school before he changed direction. The bulk of their friends are scientists who work in sicentific fields. Half of my husband's family are in sicentific fields. I teach a large chunk of the Masters and PhD students in the various science faculties at the local uni. I've never heard any of them expressing opinions that do excactly as NobleGiraffe point out

Placebo effect No
Regression to the mean Nope
Self-limiting illness Crap
Incorrect original diagnosis What bollocks
magic water Ohhhhhh....I bet that's the reason !

I think "as a scientist", and as I pointed out, I am surrounded by the buggers (no offence to scientists, but you have an annoying knack of seeingnthrough made up statistics and ruining my argument in wine fueled post dinner "discussions" which is annoying), you are pretty much in a tiny minority by leaping on the last as the most plausable explanation.

Be careful: you are moving dangerously close to the claim someone said you weren't making earlier. That the "good" is worth the sacrifice of the "harm". It isn't Ellie

No. You accused us of ignoring & not caring about the harm that modern medicine can sometimes cause. We denied this....we acknowledge it and we care.

I think all of us would stress that the good IS worth the harm....that's the point. The good massively outweighs the harm in this instance.

and modern medicine, by the way, rarely cures I don't think I've ever seen a stupider comment anywhere on MN. Ever. And having spent several weeks talking to a young Earth creationist, that's really saying something.

I categorise them the same way as I do "mediums" etc -

A) The ones who genuinely believe in what they're doing, ie the stupid ones.
B) The ones who know they're lying about the whole thing.

Modern medicine rarely cures? Wow that's scary. All those years of study, and 22 years as a doctor, has all been a waste of time for me? I guess I'd have been better off making very weak squash and selling it for a fortune. Oh well, you live and learn!

Arf at Imagine!

Robinsons is on offer in Sainsbury's at the moment if you want to get in on the act?

I am very old quite mature. As a student nurse I nursed several young men with testicular cancer. They all died. Now, in the overwhelming majority of cases, they don't. Just one example.

I used to be very sceptical about homeopathy.

Then one day I was chatting to a pharmacist and happened to mention that both my DS had unsightly warts on their hands which had resisted several treatments, including being cauterised three times by a dermatologist.

He suggested I try homeopathy, which was a special interest of his. I was a bit sceptical but thought I`d give it a go as everything else had failed.

He asked very detailed questions about diet, family life etc and gave me two tubes of little sugar pills for each boy.

My DS1 was a cynical teen, DS2 was too young to have views on the treatment, but they both took it anyway.

The warts on both boys` hands began to shrink after a few days and had totally disappeared within three weeks.

I was amazed (and hugely relieved) and no longer know what to think, as it obviously worked, we had the tangible proof - but how?

.

^^Magic medicine for everyone. It's quite potent so careful!

Pixel I refer you to the multiple posts on this thread about the many different ways in which homeopathy can seem to work.

Placebo effect - Just being given a pill by (what seems to be) a medical professional can make people get better in some cases, this is proven
Regression to the mean - over time, everything tends to revert to the average
Self-limiting illness - lots of illnesses would get better and go away regardless of any 'treatment', the fact that they get better AFTER homeopathic treatment does not mean they got better BECAUSE OF homeopathic treatment

etc.

You did not have proof that homeopathy CURED the warts, you just had the coincidence of time. For proof, you would need to show that it works in a double-blind test - i.e. you give one group of patients homeopathic 'treatments', another group a placebo, and see if there's any difference in recovery. The person giving the treatment must also be unaware of which group each patient is in (hence 'double blind'). Homeopathy has been put to this test and has failed every single time. Of course it has. There is no possible way that it could have any effect, it would violate every law of physics, biology, and chemistry.

The 'detailed questions' about your life are there to make you feel better, like someone is paying attention to you and really cares, and is giving you a personalised treatment plan.

In fact they are giving you pills made of sugar, which have been dipped in water. That's it. Really, literally. In 2010 many protesters swallowed bottles and bottles of homeopathic 'remedies' in public in order to show what total nonsense it is news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8489019.stm

Also incidentally, no one who was actually sceptical would have bothered with the treatment, so (not meant in a nasty way) you weren't really very cynical at all

Pixel That is anecdotal, not 'tangible proof'.

we had the tangible proof

Self limiting condition.

Give several hundred people with warts sugar pills. And the same number again give nothing. Some will find the taking of the sugar pills will coincide with the death of the warts. As will a similar number in the "not getting sugar pills" group".

"Proof" is a not a sample of two taking the same treatment for a self limited condition. Especially if the condition had also faced an onslaught of other treatments that might have recently kicked in in terms of effective wart murder around the time that the sugar pills were given.

The case for making a Very Big Deal out of school children leaving the system with a solid understanding of the scientific method is very strong.
With any luck they will be able to put their parents striaght when magic water starts being added to the family drawer of cures and pills.

Oh, yes, I remember, all those people taking 'overdoses' of homeopathic remedies outside major branches of Boots. Great fun.

Gosh, so many bigoted views on this.

I put my head on the block and confess I use homeopathy in an attempt to reverse some of the vaccine damage done to my severely autistic 6 year old DS.

I was sceptical at first, and no, it hasn't cured him. But, I have seen some astonishing results that convinces me that despite there being no rational explanation it is not woo. I really don't care if 99% of you think I'm a fuckwit, homeopathy has helped my DS more than any respected medical professional has been able to.

bigoted views

If you have the facts, pound the facts.

If you have the law evidence, pound the law evidence.

If you have neither the facts nor the law evidence, pound the table.

Gosh, so many bigoted views on this

Thinking rationally does not make us "bigots". Don't be so rude & offensive.

We don't know everything about everything in this world and some things may be hard to believe as we are all so conditioned to just accept what doctors/lawyers/newspapers etc say but just sometimes you have to give other things a chance. It is not an alternative it is complimentary. My doctors are amazingly open to all of this even though I have had 2 transplants heart disease and cancer! I have tried many things

My younger daughter develop some very unsightly warts on her eyelids that started as barely noticeable, but over the course of 18 months became quite prominent and obviously needed to somehow be removed, so we were referred to a dermatologist. I was fairly desperate to get it sorted for her, and the several week wait was frustrating, but I didn't want to risk any non-medically supervised home treatments and didn't try anything at all myself.

The appointment was for Christmas Eve. On the morning of the 18th December, she woke up to find that they had all fallen off/disappeared during the night. It was quite incredible, and I'm sure that if I had been trying some woo medicine like homeopathy while we waited, that I would have attributed their sudden 'cure' to that.

For a condition that can spontaneously resolve, it is far more likely when it does it would have done so anyway, rather than the inert pills and magical thinking having had any effect. We just tend to think in that way though because it gives us a feeling of control.

Ellie (and others)- I have been really impressed on this thread by your calm and rational approach. I think I would have lost patience some time ago.

Of course homeopathy can do harm. I went to see a homeopath, she told me that my conventional medications were interfering with her 'remedies' and suggested I come off them. I ignored her and didn't go back. I have an autoimmune conditions and without conventional treatment, I would get damage to my joints and some organs. How was my experience not harmful?!