to think homeopaths really just make money out of the gullible?

[WidowWadman]

A remedy made from diluted bits of the Berlin Wall - seriously, that's surely just a test to find out how far they can push it, isn't?

"And calling people who go to homeopaths "fuckwits" is lower than low."

Admittedly it's not naice but it's probably fair enough.

I'm not a scientist, just a nurse

Oi - there's no "just" anything about being a nurse - and you apply science, which makes you a scientist in my book....like doctors, dentists, vets and so on. (I realise this isn't the strict definition, but it works for me).

Like I said, lower than low. Last resort, lazy, unpleasant, insulting, empty of argument.

Equally I don't agree that conventional western medicine is the be all end all either. It is suppressive and has a long way to go. I believe our doctors miss out on the 'whole' person and only take account of the immediate physical symptoms.

Most of our illness begin in the energetic body and work their way to the physical but that is my own personal belief and probably a bit 'out there' for most people.

Excuse Wiki:

In October 2003, Jobs was diagnosed with cancer,[201] and in mid-2004, he announced to his employees that he had a cancerous tumor in his pancreas.[202] The prognosis for pancreatic cancer is usually very poor;[203] Jobs stated that he had a rare, far less aggressive type known as islet cell neuroendocrine tumor.[202] Despite his diagnosis, Jobs resisted his doctors' recommendations for mainstream medical intervention for nine months,[169] instead consuming a special alternative medicine diet in an attempt to thwart the disease. According to Harvard researcher Ramzi Amri, his choice of alternative treatment "led to an unnecessarily early death."[201] According to Jobs's biographer, Walter Isaacson, "for nine months he refused to undergo surgery for his pancreatic cancer ? a decision he later regretted as his health declined."[204] "Instead, he tried a vegan diet, acupuncture, herbal remedies and other treatments he found online, and even consulted a psychic. He also was influenced by a doctor who ran a clinic that advised juice fasts, bowel cleansings and other unproven approaches, before finally having surgery in July 2004."[205] He eventually underwent a pancreaticoduodenectomy (or "Whipple procedure") in July 2004, that appeared to successfully remove the tumor.[206][207][208] Jobs apparently did not receive chemotherapy or radiation therapy.[202][209] During Jobs's absence, Tim Cook, head of worldwide sales and operations at Apple, ran the company.[202]

In other words, without the woo crap he'd probably have been cured. He, himself, regretted his earlier actions.

Pardon me, Crumble. It was Venus who claimed to be a scientist.

If you don't use homeopathy and you don't believe in conventional medicine what do you do if ill?

I used to give Homeopathic remedies to my old arthritic horse and it helped her symptoms massively.

There's a curious thing about the placebo effect. It can work on observers.

Eg you have a horse that has a problem. You give some pointless "treatment" to said horse. Your perception of the efficacy of this treatment can be skewed because of subconscious expectations on your part.

Strictly speaking this isn't so much the "placebo effect" as it is confirmation bias but the end result is much the same. You give a treatment to someone/something because you are told it will help, you then have an in-built expectation that it will have some beneficial result. So any observation that reinforces that belief is afforded much more significance than observations that go against it.

It's for precisely this reason why most medical trials are done double-blind. It's not just the patient who is prevented from knowing whether they were given the "real" treatment or the placebo, the person recording the results of that treatment doesn't know which is which either. That way the recorder's subconscious biases are avoided. It's only when all the results are in and the data is analysed that the matching up of treatment type to results is performed.

Bore I know what you mean, but incidentally I've never heard of a scientist who calls themselves "a scientist" either, rather than say, a physicist, a biologist, an engineer, a research chemist etc. etc.

In any case she is wilfully or otherwise utterly ignoring scientific method, evidence, and all the tenets of science to make her ludicrous claims. So even if she is a fully qualified and working "scientist" it doesn't really matter in the end, because she isn't in this case.

Even more astonishing are the posts from CrumbledWalnuts who in the interests of arguing the (completely non-disputed) point that "some people have died or become ill as a result of medical treatment" is claiming that the incidence of polio has not gone down, and that diptheria, measles etc. are no less of a problem now than they were 100 years ago. Amazing

Ramzi Amri had nothing to do with Jobs' treatment - nothing at all.

Excuse Pfizer:

Pancreatic neuroendocrine tumors are different from exocrine tumors of the pancreas (pancreatic
adenocarcinoma), which account for about 95 percent of all pancreatic cancers.5
Pancreatic neuroendocrine
tumors are slow growing tumors3
that are fairly rare and are reported in two to four people per million annually
worldwide6,7 and account for approximately 22-28 percent of all neuroendocrine tumors.8,9 The incidence of
pancreatic neuroendocrine tumors appears to be rising, due in part to heightened awareness of the disease,
improved diagnostic techniques and an increased rate of incidental diagnoses during evaluations for other
conditions.10,11 For patients with pancreatic neuroendocrine tumors that have metastasized, prognosis is poor,
with a survival of only 1-3 years

Binky: who said I don't believe in conventional medicine? Did you make that up too?

See you later :)

Conventional medicine saves people's lives

Unfortunately, the NHS which is free at the point of service does not have the time to indulge the 'whole person'. It's a shame it can't, but it is trying to save you, alleviate your symptoms, distress or even sometimes listen to you.

Homeopathy has never saved lives, but remind me next time anyone wants to resuscitate me with conventional medicine, fluids etc..to remember the terrible things that orthodox medicine does. I'll take the risk.

Crumbledwalnuts, I got your post muddled up with Venus's one about being a scientist, but you appear to be mixing me up with Binkybix so I guess we're even :)

As for conventional medicine you seem to be dismissing it as dangerous and ineffective so I was just asking what your position was.

Ramzi Amri is a lead researcher and was approached for his professional opinion, which was that Jobs wasted time looking for "alternatives" when conventional medicine would have had more chance of saving him.

To be honest, I'm amazed that homeopathy has manged to avoid being classified as fraud- I guess homeopaths are careful about how they word their claims. Funny how they only mention the memory that water retains of the supposed homeopathic cure- I've never seen any consideration of the memory that water might retain of an oil spill, or the sewage works.

As has been pointed out, patients can gain enormous benefits from 3 things which are often bound up with homeopathy- the placebo effect; the fact that many illnesses clear up over time in patients with a well-functioning immune system; and spending time with somebody who actually has time to listen to the patient about their problems. Surely it would be a better use of NHS funds to stop all homeopathy funding, and instead spend the money on (for example) extending GP appointment times, so that the medical professional with an overview of the patient's health also has sufficient time to discuss health concerns with the patient.

I am starting my own branch of Alternative medicine. Its called The blue hat model.
When I had a bad cold I went the shop for some aspirin. While I was standing in the queue a lovely lady in a blue hat sympathised with me.
When I went home I felt much better.
Therefore ladies in blue hats alleviate bad colds. I am going to employ an army of them to visit people in there homes and go 'there there'

For patients with pancreatic neuroendocrine tumors that have metastasized, prognosis is poor
with a survival of only 1-3 years

Yes - that have metastasized, as Jobs' had done. If he'd been treated before that had happened, he'd have stood a good chance of a cure.

Ramzi Amri had nothing to do with Jobs' treatment - nothing at all Neither did you. But I'll take the word of a Harvard Researcher (you know, an expert) over yours, thanks.

Someone pinch me, please? Am I actually talking to a person who is apparently arguing that modern medicine causes more harm than good?

Really?

Fuckwit IS rude. I won't call you that.

You are ignorant though. Embarrassingly so.

I agree that taking into account the 'whole person' would actually be a good thing, but the phrase ''whole person' has come to mean "Never mind the broken leg! look at the state of his chakra! Quick somebody fetch a crystal"

As polio has gone down with opv in some areas, the increase of unspecified acute paralysis exactly mirrors the decline. Which seems to indicate that either polio was overdiagnosed in the first place, or there is something very wrong with the vaccination programme

A source for this please.

That's great - I've used antibiotics. But I try to avoid them because their overuse has caused problems in itself. We could go there if you like

No - completely agree with you on this. I try to avoid them for the same reason.

Regarding diabetes & asthma - did I say they'd been cured and are no longer problematic? No - they are largely controllable now which they weren't at all a century ago.

Has Venus told us which area of science she works in?

This is reminding me of the Young Earth Creationist threads.

What is really exercising me though is not so much the worried well throwing away their money on sugar pills remembering water which remembered something else; it is the obscene way this garbage is being touted in African countries as a CURE for malaria, HIV, TB and infant diarrhoea www.senseaboutscience.org/pages/homeopathy-in-developing-countries.html
It is criminal, in my opinion, and yet it s being promoted and supported by homeopathic communities in this country.

I agree that taking into account the 'whole person' would actually be a good thing

It's not to be sniffed at. I went to what I think was a homeopathic college (in Tunbridge Wells) in 1988.

They cured me.

Unfortunatley that can't be attributed to magic water, cos I had zero understanding of homeophathy at the time and didn't take the pills. I was too scared to. It was a poisen name and I was worried it would kill me despite claims to the contrary.

Plus they wanted me to give up coffee and mint toothpaste cos back then those were claimed to interfer with the pills effectiveness. Over my dead body was I giving up coffee to take a potentially lethal poisen.

What worked was the two hour consult. I was in a very bad way emotionally at the time. For the first time in 4 years somebody was willing to ask questions and actually listen rather than close me down, hustle me out the door ASAP to make room for the next patient.

Sounds stupid I know. But the sheer relief of being heard and not shunted aside had an amazing effect. I think there is a case for having a coucelling and medically trained nurse placed within health regions, so patients who might normally be told to bugger off with a placebo or just ignored can be refered to a listening ear and get the benfits of the homeopath style consult.

It might be very expensive, but some costs could be clawed by better management of just the frequant flyers, let alone the people with a blip that can be halted from decending into a more fixed state with intervention. And the benefit of doing it within the mainstream health system is that if somebody does have a serious but missed pathology they are aren't going to be enticed to risk their health or life on snake oil. They can be referred straight back to the relevant consultant.

I've bought some teething granules for my ds, are these homeopathic or herbal? I'm guessing the placebo affect doesn't work on small babies in pain

www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/polio-free-does-not-mean-paralysis-free/article4266043.ece

Backonlybriefly: perhaps I did :) Conventional medicine IS often dangerous and ineffective. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.