School are unable to tell yr5/6 children that homosexuality is normal.

[EleanorHandbasket]

It's in their policies. We've just been to a meeting about what they are going to be learning over the next yr with regard to health and sex education.

In the handout it says that 'any questions raised by pupils that require an answer that exceeds the agreed content of this policy, eg homosexual sex, will not be answered in an open class discussion. the matter will be referred to the individual parents for further guidance on their child's emotional needs.'

My friend asked what that meant for a child asking 'is homosexuality normal?'. the teacher replied that they woudl be unable to answer that question because they can't be seen to be making a judgement either way.

I don't really understand why they can't say,'yes it's normal'. End of discussion.

The teacher said that's because some parents may have issues around it and that they have to cater to all the parents wishes.

Well, I think that by refusing to state that it's normal, as in some people are homosexual and it is totally a) legal, b) not a choice, and c) likely to be the reality for many of the children being taught (whether that's personally or to do with friends and family), that they are in fact making a judgement.

My other friend (who is a teacher) thinks that actually they are doing teh best they can within the confines of the policy and parents' wishes.

I'm just really uncomfortable with it. AIBU? And is there any point talking to the governers?

Children need to know that all sorts is acceptable.

there are now plenty of children from same sex relationships I remember in school a few years ago a little girl telling me that kids were saying you couldnt have two mums. well, she did. I said pretty loudly (it was in the dinner queue) that of course you could have two mums, and two dads for that matter.

So if a school is prepared to demonise an individual child's family circumstances, and the fall out from that, they must be prepared for confrontation.

And given that "call me dave" has approved same sex marriage, surely this should now be a given in schools?

Funny how the government are happy for gay issues to be avoided at school, saying they should be discussed at home, yet the study of RE is compulsory at DS's school right up to GCSE. Now that's something I think should be taught at home.

Elquota, that is just silly. red hair might be a minority hair colour, but it is perfectly normal.

Also I think the program should be scrapped if they have to refer questions about human relationships to parents and in doing so give the impression that there is something 'different' or 'unusual' about those questions

All questions should be answered including those about polygamy or bestial

Yanbu and this makes me feel angry and sad. Please complain to the governors /the council /everyone!

Did you get a sense at the meeting of how most parents felt about this issue?

Elquota, that is just silly. red hair might be a minority hair colour, but it is perfectly normal.

But that was exactly my point

Wasn't that the gist of Section 28 during Thatcher's years?
Does that law still exist?

I would be incandescent if this happened at my dd's school. Because by refusing to discuss it, the teacher is NOT maintaining a neutral position - they are broadcasting a clear message (to the child and to their peers) that there is something wrong with even asking the question.

For all those who feel such matters should be left to secondary school: I'm sorry to inconvenience you but my children and many others have gay parents, so it's not an option to keep it out of primary. In any discussion on families, my children's teachers have to deal with the fact that all the children in the class already know that you can have two mummies, because my dd is sitting there.

Now that the law of the land has normalised homosexuality, there is absolutely no excuse for state schools to refuse to do likewise.

LadyBeagle, Section 28 has been scrapped.

I thought it had Devora.
Maybe someone needs to tell Eleanor's school.

It's this kind of crap that made me suicidal as a teenager. I feel really strongly about it, as the complete refusal to discuss homosexual relationships made me feel even more of a freak than I already felt, and it is pure luck that it didn't have tragic consequences. How hard is it to say that homosexual relationships are normal .

No one needs to go into detail, they just need to say that gay relationships are OK. It is not difficult, and failure to say that it is OK to be gay can have horrific consequences, especially when parents are completely unsupportive.

The school will have to be sensitive to the religious beliefs of some parents, and I think there are some things that are up to parents to deal with, not schools.

I totally disagree. If children/young people are being told only one view at home than school/college is exactly the place to explore other views/beliefs.

I love teaching the 'equality and diversity' unit for this reason. The bigotry of some people, that they have acquired from family can be astounding.

One example, "yes I'd let a priest in to see a poorly baby to baptise it, but I wouldn't let an Iman in to say the adhan".

Why should the parents' desire to have a religious belief come before the child's well being?

My DSis is bisexual. She has had long term female partners, and in her early 20s, she believed she was gay, although she now has a male partner.

My parents are Christians, who, I would say, are fundamentalist. My DSis was sent to a Christian school (like a "free school" set up by fundamentalist Christians). Inside and outside the home, she would've got the message that homosexuality was evil.

This has been very hard for my DSis. She has suffered from depression, which caused her not to finish her degree. That has had a big bearing on her life.

What if she had had strong messages from outside the home, that homosexuality is fine, that some religions believe it is wrong, but that it is accepted as a normal sexuality by our society as a whole?

Well, I think her life would've been very much easier, under those circumstances.

Please remember that we are talking about real people here, not some hypothetical "what if" person.

I don't think schools should be teaching children about sexuality if they are not prepared to discuss the questions the children might ask.

I have a child in y5 and I have a huge problem with the way the sex ed has been handled.

The girls were told that periods last 7-10 days. That alone had me going

I have been very impressed by the way sex education and other pshe topics have been handled by dc's junior school.

10 and 11 is precisely the age where you need to handle these questions. The children are approaching puberty, some will already have reached. It is an age where homophobic bullying is likely to rear its ugly head. It is also an age where insensitivity and ignorance can make life very hard for a gay child even if his/her mates do not actually intend bullying. This is where education has an important place to play.

I wouldn't want my dc taught by whimps like the ones at Eleanor's school. Thankfully they weren't.

One of DD's class mates is a Jehovah's Witness. She has to sit through a month of "Ooh, it's going to be Christmas!" activities each year, and about 20 days of birthday celebrations. Should we ban those because they conflict with her parents' beliefs? No, because the cultural norms of this country make birthdays and Christmas a big deal. Same goes for gay rights (and gender equality).

Thing is if the OP's school do exactly as they've said and children do go home and ask their parents the kids are, at some point, going to discuss it amongst themselves and their opinions will influence each others. It's going to happen whether the religious parents like it or not.

I think this definitely needs to be addressed on a national level and made a compulsory part of sex education in the schools where sex education is provided.

I don't think schools should be teaching children about sexuality if they are not prepared to discuss the questions the children might ask.

This.

It reminds me of my ire when a nursery worker told DD that you had to be married to have a baby. My attitude is that if you're not prepared to answer, refer them to me straight away - don't fill their heads with inaccurate nonsense.

My attitude changed slightly when I sent them to school. I chose to send them to Catholic school, knowing that there would be a specific bent on religious education and certain social studies questions. The thing is, I chose this knowing that I would have to re-educate or even pre-educate the children on certain issues. For example, I believe that gay-marriage should be permissible in a Catholic church. My children know this, the teachers know this, my priest knows this, hell, I even tweeted the Pope on this. I'm not saying that the school can't tell them according to their views; just that they have to be prepared for me doing exactly the same. I have to admit, I don't know about the Pope, but all the other people concerned are completely happy with this, and agree that my views are valid and should be heard.

Sorry; I've gone off on a tangent.

I think my point is, in as much as I have a point, that the children will hear all sorts of views from all sorts of people. They will hear 'ask your parents, I'm not allowed to talk about it', and they will also hear 'gay people are evil and anti-God.' I obviously don't think either of these positions are right, and I'd much prefer they didn't hear them in school. However, I think it's probably a good idea to get your children used to discerning what is right from wrong, wherever it is heard, even if it comes from their teachers or their priest.

Oh and yes, discuss with the head, lobby the governors, lobby the Department of Education, because this is indeed a wrong that needs to be righted.

As the other parent of a child at school with Eleanor's, I have drafted a letter to send the head and governors on this matter. I'll post it below for feedback:

'I am writing to express my concern at the provision of PSHCE in Year 5.

I last night attended the parents meeting, setting out the objectives for the subject over the coming weeks. My concern comes from the discussion of same sex relationships. The subject was raised as to how the school would address the topic and the response was that a same sex relationship exists in the DVD they are to watch but that any relevant questions would be referred back to parents as 'many families have differing views on the subject'. I fail to understand what individual families beliefs have to do with the promotion of equality in a primary school?

I understand that the school is bound not to 'promote, advocate or represent homosexual behaviours as the norm' and clearly heterosexual relationships are still THE norm, but I see no reason why it cannot be represented as A normal and healthy orientation.

I fear that by referring questions back to parents on this specific matter, rather than openly discussing them, the school are actually reinforcing the belief that it is somehow wrong or shameful to have preferences outside of 'the norm'.

I understand the school wants to cause least offence to families of all religious beliefs, but I consider this to be in direct conflict with the promotion of equality. If a child were to ask if it is ok to marry someone of another ethnicity or religion the answer would be unequivocal, despite the fact that many religions and cultures still see this as unacceptable. I suggest that the same precedent be followed in matters of sexual orientation. My concern is that it is the children of these families who are most vulnerable to feelings of isolation or shame. The questions being referred home simply means they may never get the reassurance they seek that they, or their peers, are part of a normal spectrum of sexual orientation.'

I think that letter is really good.

I'm going to email as well. I spoke to another mum this morning and she thought it was a bizarre meeting and an odd policy.

I've requested a direct email address for both the head and chair of governors, so I'll pass them on.

Unfortunately, it sounds like they are just covering their arses. Of course homosexuality (and indeed bisexuality and transgenderism) is normal. Well adjusted adults know this, but there are still biggots who have to spoil it for everyone else.

Personally I don't think the school should try and brush it under the carpet. It's the 21st Century ffs. My son is gay and I hate to think that there are still people who have an issue with this sort of thing.

Um, sorry for slight offtopic point, but as it was mentioned upthread, evolution is a fact. Things evolve. The theory bit is the theory of natural selection, i.e., the theory as to how/why things evolve.

And this is crazy. Children, who are just discovering that they might be gay, and with bigoted parents, can't even discuss it neutrally at school and get some reassurance? That's dreadful!

Disgusting that this is still the case in 2013. Absolutely unacceptable. I agree with the poster who said that there should be someone at your local council who actually has the job of diversity training and could deal with this. Surely that policy is actually illegal?

I 100% couldn't give a toss what religious or other beliefs various parents have- our schools have a duty to teach that homosexuality is as acceptable and fine a sexuality as any other, just as we teach that black people are as "right" and entitled to go about their business as white people. End of.

I remember fighting for the repeal of Section 28 all those years ago and thinking it would put an end to such bigoted claptrap.