To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

Part of that toolkit is the capacity to work hard, especially at subjects that may not be their favourite, and not become demotivated if they try and fail at something. In other words, they need tenacity and resilience

I completely agree. I am involved in recruitment at work now, and we see a lot of clever young people with neither. Many have always been spoon fed in some way (and pushing is a form of spoon feeding-all the impetus to do well coming from the parent, lots of help so the child doesn't learn to do things independently, a very structured existence) and some can seem to expect that employers should be making sure that they succeed, rather than ensuring that themselves. But at work people only support you to a point: it's business, not a commune. Ultimately they give you stuff to do and expect you to get on with it.

Often, failing to secure a permanent place in our competitive field is their first real failure, and they can't absorb it. It's as though after all that pushing and hard work and attainment, they feel they are owed success as of right.

People do get that there is a range of abilities, right? That 'average' is average because it is the 50th percentile? So half of all people will be below average? You can't will those realities away. That's why effort (maximise your own results, prospects etc) is a better thing to encourage than raw attainment because by definition, only what? 10 or 15% of kids will get As.

Part of pushing your children effectively has got to be about being very realistic about their natural limitations. If they already need to put in hours and hours just to cope with A level, how on earth will they manage in uni seminars or with the weekly reading list on a demanding course?

I do see what you are saying - but...

I put in really long hours to get through A-levels - then just did the same with my degree as that what I always had done - finally being diagnosed with dyslexia didn't change that. I came out with a good degree went into an industry where long hours were part of the course. I wasn't unhappy with any of that as I enjoy learning and enjoyed later the money.

Actually always having to work hard to achieve probably helped me at University where I saw a lot who never struggled or who got spoon feed often at private school struggle.

I have been upset with the Primary school teachers who said I'd never get into the top sets at secondary, do well with exams and shouldn't think about University. Their lack of ambition for me could have been really limiting if I'd listen to their view of my 'natural limitations'.

I had a really pushy dad (no longer alive) - no one in our family had gone to Uni - I did, got my First Class Maths degree, went to work for the civil service - and am now a SAHM - probably out of spite...

I married a man who earned "enough" and loved me enough to say "Don't do it anymore if you don't love it" - which is what my dad should have been saying really.....

Our kids are well rounded and encouraged - not pushed.....

You were the one who brought the word "fail" onto this thread, niceguy2.

If telling your child they have failed when they get a B isn't "making them feel like a failure", I don't know what is.

"It's not about pushing your child at all costs to achieve and making them feel like a failure if they do not. That's missing my point. It's having high expectations and then supporting them to achieve it. If they don't then you do what is necessary to put it right. If that means they have to resit the exam latter then so be it."

In what way is telling them that "a B is a fail" not making them feel failures?

Loa, I'm not saying you should not have been encouraged and supported to go to university. And I am certainly not any fan of having low expectations. I just think that parents should not be blind to their children's individual talents, likes, dislikes, and place on the spectrum of intelligence.

You worked hard and did well. Another child might have been crushed emotionally by the need to work so hard. People who say a B is a fail to their children (irrespective of the child's ability) are putting an awful lot of pressure on them, including emotional pressure.

I haven't read all the replies so forgive any x posting.

I personally want to foster a love of learning so that when my children go off into the world they know how to be self motivated and be true to who they are. I would rather my kids grew up knowing they were unconditionally loved for who they are and not how 'successful' they are (again I consider being a happy well rounded person more successful than having a high flying career and a bunch of high gcse grades).

The fact is that education and qualifications are different things. Just because you can remember information and pass a standardized test does not mean you are well educated. A person can be well educated and have no qualifications what so ever. I did fairly well in GCSE's & A Levels however my husband didn't do so well and dropped out of college. Funny how he's the one who earns about 4 times as much as I could earn and has 12yrs of invaluable experience in his chosen industry.

I will not be a pushy parent because I don't know what my children are going to be good at or enjoy, we will be exposing them to a wide range of activities so they have the freedom to make their own choices in life.

Niceguy. I got 1 "B" in my entire educational history. My father said much the same as you. It did not motivate me. I was capable of getting As and got them, not because of his attitude, but inspite of it. However, 30 years later I have never forgiven or forgotten that remark and we do not have a good relationship.

My dd does not "get" maths. Tutoring has not helped (although she enjoyed it), practice does not help, although she does it. I estimate that, at best, she will make the middle sets for maths in senior school and a "B" would be a great achievement. There is no way I can help her to be better at maths that I have not already tried. She had a maths test this morning. Would the right advice, when she was crying about it last night, have been (a) do your best, try your hardest, that is all you can do and we will be proud of that or (b) don't come home with anything less than an A?

Not all children can achieve As whatever the effort you and they put in and some times a good effort is enough!

A lot of the posts seem to focus on how hard a child is trying, quite valid points on are they trying in the best way. A lot of research, just reading from the newspapers so I don't have the links or an in depth knowledge, point out that praising effort is very productive. I'm paraphrasing, a lot.

If two groups of children take an exam, one set is praised for their cleverness, the other for their effort. The children then take another test, those praised for their effort tend to do better in the long run. They aren't afraid of not succeeding so will try again. Those that are praised for their cleverness don't take as many risks, they are more scared of failing.

I try to take that approach with my children, to teach them to try, not to be scared of failing and that hard work is often needed and to be resilient. In the long run, once they are working, either for someone else or themselves, taking risks and responsibility will help in whatever they decide to do.

I have a friend whose parents never pushed her, praised her nor encouraged her. They wanted her to want to get to the top on her own account. She has.
She's an interesting character, not remotely competitive, she doesn't get that at all. She knows that if she works hard enough she will get what she wants, and doesn't care at all how long other people take to get there.

EldritchCleavage - the pressure wasn't from my parents - they told me to work hard and always emphasized that but were astonished when I later did well. The only reason my mother didn't veto University was bragging rights and fact she was made to quit her A-levels.

Where I grew up, where DH grew up and where we live now there are so many people putting limits of their DC for 'their DC own good'. In these area support is often label 'pushiness'.

If we'd listen to DS teacher last year we wouldn't have bothered with extra effort and time and I doubt he'd have improved as much as he has.

Obviously pushing in a direct a DC has no inclination or aptitude for is very wrong - and frankly so counter productive you have to wonder at the sanity and emotional intelligence of the parents that do that.

The OP isn't about picking subjects or Universities or courses or careers it about getting 'pushy' in year 4 resulting in a place at competitive selective secondary and I think it depends on what the OP means by 'pushy'.

Obviously labeling a B a fail is wrong.

I got many B's I saw it as a sign improvement was possible. In fact the E I got in my language mock G.C.S.E was the spur to put in a lot of extra work on my part and I raised it 3 grades by the exam - this may well be my 'oddness'.

Once my parents had worked out that DB and I were "clever", they became quite competitive for us. They were not pushy in the sense of the OP, in that private school and tutors were out of the question financially - we went to the local state primary and then grammar school in a grammar school area in the days when tutoring was not required to get in - but were pushy in their own way. Both of us went to Oxbridge. I have a successful career, DB less so - he had a breakdown in his mid 20s and veers between jobs that require him to use his brain but which he finds stressful and jobs which he does not find stressful but considers beneath him and gets bored in. I do not know whether my parents' pushiness contributed to my successful career or to his breakdown. FWIW I would consider myself happy in life (and being very secure financially definitely helps with that), my brother less so (he is happier now that he has a lovely partner, but he says he does sometimes look at my life and think that could have been him too if he had thought harder about the "right" career for him).

There is nothing wrong with being average.

The world is made up of average and it is the average person who makes the world work. The ones who quietly get on with their lives doing average jobs for average pay.

I think "pushy" is fine, so long as the child knows they are loved for who they are, no matter what.

Loa...sounds depressingly familiar :( my ds was the same but nothing I was doing at home was seeming to help.
Do check out the tinsley house support thread on the sn boards.
My son is no longer on the sen register and no longer shows dyslexic traits x

Yes you sound very pushy, to a fault. Are your dc happy, do tey want to do those things? You will find in about 10 years they may well burn out as tey have had enough. There is nothing wrong with wanting te best for your Chidren and encouraging them. Childhood is over soon enough, teir should be a good balance of work and play!

I was starting to become pushy but dd was dx with ASd and developmental delay, she goes to a special school. I tk learning at her pace, same with ds 16 months

Can I just ask...what exactly is wrong with "average"???!
I am average. Left school with 12 GCSEs and a couple of a levels. UnI was never an option for me. Parents couldn't afford it. End of. Went out to work at 18.
I want to give my dc the options I never had. The choices. The benefit of my experience, which my parents couldn't/wouldn't.
My dh took on an apprenticeship at 16 and did his degree through work and college placement.
If my dc want to go to uni, I would do all I could to help them.
Ditto stage school (yes ds2 I am looking at you :)) sports college...whatever.
The simple fact is that not all dc are capable of getting a good degree with relevance to a future career.
I am so sick of seeing all these young people with firsts and 2:1s in media and travel who can't get a job. Of course they can't get a bloody job! Their degree is a soft one and employers know it!
Far better IMHO to get a Saturday job or volunteer in your preferred interest and go from there....do job based relevant quals! And that isn't always a degree!!

I think that parents can sometimes be qualified (or self-qualify) as pushy when they are, in fact, merely ultra supportive. And there is a world of difference between being supportive and being pushy!

My parents expected a lot from me and would breath down my neck about homework and decide which friends were suitable, what activities were suitable etc.

I can directly attribute this to me going completely off the rails when I hit the age of 15.

That's not to say that all teenagers would react in this way, but it has certainly made me adopt a more laid back approach now I'm a parent.

It depends. Often pushy is just used as a cover word for overbearing and rude and is sometimes just a means that some use to propel (force) kids down a road that they don't want.

Do check out the tinsley house support thread on the sn boards.

Thanks Badvoc I'm keeping an eye on those threads and an open mind.

Though thankfully both have shown massive improvements this last year but I'm always keen for ways to help them so they don't struggle - and I'm frustrated with the school attitude of them struggling but not enough to help- I don't want them left to struggle and cope by themselves like I was.

Loa. Yes.
I know exactly what you mean.
I think the thing that really bothers me about all this "tiger mother" thing is that these people are tying to live vicariously through their kids.
That is all kinds of wrong.

Seeker - my dd is "bored" as she's sitting in a class learning how to do shadowing when she figured it out years ago. No different to a child who can do simultaneous equations sitting in a basic algebra class due to age. Art teacher is happy to push her on (I never asked) so I'm happy to go with that.