To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

My dc all play 1 or 2 instruments which I think is great (and yes, my grade 8 in a totally different instrument helps!). They all do a sporting activity, all go to a uniformed org (scouts/brownies).

I'm not in any way pushy, although I'm on my dd2's back a bit this week to practice for her violin grade 2!

The "pushiest" thing I've ever done is send them to a bilingual school. They love it, it's very relaxed (state school, not private) and they've all become effortlessly bilingual by going here.

Tbh, I'm not convinced Oxbridge is such a goal. There aren't any state grammars in Scotland (purely comp in the state sector and we would never go private) and my dc are already showing skills that we can easily encourage without being "pushy" (we're both high achievers with RG degrees).

Dd1 is very artistic and hopes to attend either Edinburgh college of art or Glasgow school of art (she's only 13 but has researched it herself!) or possibly Central St Martins in London.

Ds is already designing apps for his phone (at 11) and has already decided that he's off to Dundee Uni to do computer science then he's going to work for RockStar games (they did Grand Theft Auto, he's never seen it but a friend did human animation on the games and he's my ds's hero, and has agreed when ds needs school work experience he'll give him a place for a week!).

Dd2 currently wants to be the new David Attenborough. I'm not sure what the degree course for that might be?

I don't push. I encourage, I open up doors for them when an interest develops, I facilitate the things they want to do while providing an all round good experience. Pushiness would put my children off.

Going to a private prep, a super selective grammar wouldn't meet my dc needs. The bilingual education they are getting can't be bought. Oxbridge doesn't feature in my dc's ideas (if it did I'd help, but I'm not pushing that way or any way) and I want them to do what they are best at, what they love the most.

With music, sport etc I've encouraged breadth, which is essential. I'll encourage anything else. But if you have to push, is it really worth it??

It's a balance OP.

Nothing wrong at all with being ambitious for your DC and having high expectations. Just don't tip inot ridiculous over expectation.

The idea that DC can't be happy and high achieving is a Mumsnet perennial.

But yes, you are right, the world is vastly different to our day. Far far more competitive! Many seem in complete denial/complacancy.

I find it odd that you would go to such lengths, but I do believe in a good education.

I also believe in freedom of choice though, so would not force my DD to do something she didn't want to.

If your DC's go on to work in a less high achieving or less respected field would this bother you? If so then YABU

I wou;d suggest that a better term would be "an interested mum" rather than "pushy".

Nothing wrong in wanting your child to achieve the best they can as long as it is what they want and not just what you want.

Coffee that all sounds so familiar.

I was pressurised, pushed and guillt-tripped for most of my school/college/uni career (when I say guilt-tripped I mean stuff along the lines of, 'you're letting your dad down/haven't we suffered enough' etc a few years after my dad died).

My mum didn't speak to me for two days after I got my A-level results because I didn't get any As....

To cut a very long story short I dropped out of uni the first time round and ended up with some quite severe bouts of depression throughout my twenties, crippling self-esteem issues and a lot of anger towards my mum which took a year of psychotherapy to sort out.

I did get a degree in the end and am hoping to start a Masters in the autumn so I got there in the end, but I'm 32 now and I really do think that if I hadn't been pressured so much I would have got it all done a lot sooner.....

So yes, be supportive, be ambitious, be helpful to/for your child...but be sensitive too. Don't ever link academic success to who they are as a person, or invest in it emotionally.

Good luck!

Just make sure you teach them independent study skills and critical thinking, or when they do get to Uni they will crash and burn.

Your insistence that there is only one path to achievement is very... interesting. Let's hope your DCs agree with it, eh?

I don't intend to be 'pushy'. Involved, supportive and expecting my children to work hard yes, but pushy, no.

My nephew is at an elite uni and has come home saying his girlfriend and some of his friends are having their lives made a misery by pushy parents who never let up and never seem to be satisfied with their children. He actually thanked his parents for not being like that.

Not saying this applies to you OP, but all parents need to remember that (i) all these achievements are for the children, not for the parents; and (ii) taken too far, all kids get from being pushed is a sense that their parents' love for them is highly conditional on worldly success; and (iii) horses for courses. Pushing children into attainments that are not for them or are beyond them is a foolproof recipe for the unhappiness of everybody.

I don't see myself as pushy but I do have high expectations from my kids.

I really REALLY don't understand parent's with the attitude of "Well...as long as they've tried their hardest then that's all that matters." (Let me caveat that with as long as the kids are healthy etc.)

For me I go to school meetings and I personally don't give a toss how much effort they are putting in lessons. What matters are their results. If my son can sit there doodling and still hit top marks then fair play to him. If he's not though then I need to know why then we put it right. I tell my kids that a B is a fail in this house. Ideally I want to see A*'s but I'll compromise on A's.

The world is much more competitive now. I watched Skint on 4OD last night and couldn't help but feel sorry for that lad who left school with one D at GCSE. He's the same age as my daughter. Education is the only thing standing between them both getting no job and a good job.

Coasting along aiming for a C simply isn't going to cut it in this world now. You've got children in India, South Korea, China all getting degree's, competing for the same jobs and willing to work for half the UK salary (or less!).

I take Quesadilla's point but then I've always told my kids I love them unconditionally. And as such it's my job to make sure they have everything they need to hit those top marks.

Do they enjoy the activities you are making them do? If they didn't would you let them stop?

When do they get time to be themselves and have a play with friends?

I really don't believe the world is more competitive now. It's always been competitive. Economies flux and change, but I believe it's easier for, for example, working class girls to get on academically and economically now than it was in my day. Most of my peer group who went to Uni were 'first generation'. A lot of them had to fight tooth and nail for the opportunity too.

Everything that worra said.
I must be a dreadful parent! :)
As long as my kids are happy and independent then I don't give a toss what they do.
Not everyone is cut out to be doctors or lawyers.
I would hate to force my child down a career path and for them to blame me for it in later life (as has happened with one family member who was take out of a lovely village primary and out into private shcool at age 7)
He left home at 18 and has never been back - he is now 48 and his parents can't understand why he isn't grateful and whyntheynhave such a poor relationship.
He isn't grateful because he hated it. He had no friends and they refused to do/be involved in anything they didn't enjoy themselves. For example, his father refused today football with him. Would only play cricket.
Sad.

Exactly barbarian.
My ds1 is severly dyslexic. He gives 110% and used to have to watch kids giving perhaps only 60% effort achieve much more easily than him. It's soul destroying. But he never gave up. He is doing very well with the extra help we have given him at home.
I don't think he will win a Nobel prize :) but his self esteem is far far better now.

I don't like the "doodling and doing great, it's results that matter" comment.

My dd1 is a gifted artist. She's operating well above her age level, doesn't slack, is very good. School are hoping she can take her first art exams early, because otherwise she'll be bored!

I'd hate to think my dc were "doodling" their way to great results. That is letting them down!

Wilson I think the world is farmore competiive.

For one thing, globalisation has meant huge movement of people placing pressure on resources.

Gaining a decent tertiary education now puts you in competition with far more applicants than it did previously.

And getting a decent job is ever more reliant on gaining a decent tertiary education.

And as the cost of living/house prices/university fees/child care rockets, more and more people target those decent jobs!

ephemeral, such a similar story to me and that is why I will NEVER put my DC under the pressure that I endured.

I've had severe bouts of depression too and a very unhealthy relationship with food for as long as I can remember, and it's all linked the unhappiness I felt in my secondary school years from having a pushy mum. And over a year of psychotherapy to sort out too.

My relationship with my mother was awful and was not far off the point of no return. We have rebuilt our relationship now, I'm glad to say.

I'm pleased that you're getting things back on track too. But it is ironic that as you say, it would have happened far sooner without your mother's pushiness.

To me, getting my child to Oxbridge university is not my "end-goal". I want a happy, respectful, balanced adult in a job they enjoy, partners they love & financially secure. Now I can't be sure that will happen, but that is my aim.

A child pushed through their childhod, stressed, no social interactions - no normal friendship fall outs & make ups, no chilling and watching the clouds etc. This kid might well get into oxbridge, possibly do well (but many pushed kids flunk without mummy checking up on them) and they may end up in long hours, high paid job but with no love or joy in their life.

Pushy does not equal happy or success in life. They only get one childhood, a time to learn social behaviours etc. Success is more than a uni degree.

What Worra said.

I think that some parents let their children - and themselves - down, very badly with their overbearing behaviour. Unfortunately, that awful mistake doesn't become apparent until it's all too late, when relationships have broken down and children have failed to achieve - or thrive - with the lofty ambitions of their parent(s).

Supportive and encouraging, absolutely yes. "Pushy", no.

"My dd1 is a gifted artist. She's operating well above her age level, doesn't slack, is very good. School are hoping she can take her first art exams early, because otherwise she'll be bored!"

Now this I don't understand! Why on earth would a gifted artist be bored if she couldn't do exams early?

Signing in as on the pushy side of interested, by the way.

This is all part of a certain mentality. My DC are a mix, currently:

DS1-Banking/Finance- he has a job in this industry and is progressing nicely
DS2- Wants to be a pathologist or sports doctor (not sure what that one is called)
DS3- Wants to be a social worker
DS4- Wants to be a plumber
DD- Wants to run a kebab shop but is 6 and it changes weekly

I cannot see that regardless of the economy and the developments in the BRIC countries that there is going to be an issue with 'foreign' competition in regards to wanting to be a social worker, plumber or similar type jobs. There is nothing wrong with that type of employment, its decent work that has just as much chance of making my DC happy as being a UN ambassador or whatever the current parental dream job is. I work in PR, DH works in the city, both of these have always been relatively international industries and I can't say that has massively changed recently. I think the fears about competition from abroad are being over-exaggerated or only apply to a certain niche.

There's definitely a balance to be struck. I think the encouragement and support you are offering at home is worth a thousand times more than expensive tutoring and countless after school activities. You can't put a price on a loving environment and a good example set by parents that are hard working and show determination to achieve their goals. I'm a bit confused by the comment that You don't understand how parents can say "as long as they try their hardest that's all that matters". If they are trying their hardest to achieve their goals, surely that is something to be praised? They literally cannot try harder, and that's still not good enough for you. As long as someone is reaching their potential, that's the important thing. Not everyone can achieve a's or a*. Training children to pass exams will not necessarily give them the advantage. I say this as someone with an excellent academic record who left university and applied for jobs to find in interviews that my social skills were valued as much, if not more than my academic achievements. If you must push, do so, but make sure you are enabling your children to gain as much life experience as possible.

jenny why on earth do you assume that high achieving DC have no friends or social interaction?

Why do you assume that students at Oxbridge aren't having fun and achieving academic excellence?

Why do you assume that having a highly paid job would mean there was no love in your life?

Seriously, this sort of shit sounds like it's cut from a Clinton card!!! 'Happiness is watching the clouds'... do you really believe that high achievers don't do it?

But that's bonkers! If they are trying really hard and they are still can't do it then what?

Trying how though? Let's put music aside for a moment and pick a core subject like maths. If you aren't hitting the grades then usually there's a reason for it. Is there some fundamental topic you haven't quite got? Which needs reinforcing? There's little point in your child sitting there and reading a textbook praying he has some sort of epiphany. Maybe the teacher is too distracted by other unruly pupils to teach effectively in which case as a parent i'd need to complain to the head.

You can try really hard in completely the wrong way and it's wasted effort. It's more important to find out what's wrong then fix it.

As for music, i suspect my attitude here won't be very well received either lol. I do have an exception for music, PE, RS, drama & art. Those I don't really care what they get and would rather they spent their time concentrating on the other more 'core' subjects instead.

My point is this. Why accept your child can't hit top mark's? Or feel that somehow it's wrong to expect them to?

DD & I went to one of her future college's. We waited to talk to tutors and heard them tell kids that they'd need a 'B' to study that particular subject and the disappointment in their voices when the teenager admitted they may not get that. The choice my DD has to make is which college SHE wants to go to, not which college or which course will accept her.

Aim high. What's wrong with that?

tig yes, there will be work fror plumbers and social workers in the future.

But, less of both I predict. And pressure on income derived!

And here's the difficulty as I see it.
In the coming years there will be no benefits to speak of, the state pension will be attacked, the NHS will be reduced (I bet we all soon have to pay for GP visits)...yet the cost of living including house prices and child care will continue!

In order to live well under such a regime, you'll really need to earn well!

If my son can sit there doodling and still hit top marks then fair play to him. If he's not though then I need to know why then we put it right. I tell my kids that a B is a fail in this house. Ideally I want to see A's but I'll compromise on A's.*

See, I think that's all wrong. Coasting is bad. If you get into the habit at school, it is very hard to break later, and you will probably have compromised your ability to achieve at work and throughout life (getting a good job is just a beginning, not the end of all effort, after all). Also, in my opinion learning is not just about the job you get or money you earn as an adult. Personal growth and development is important too, and you don't get much of that when coasting.

And as for demanding 'A's, what if the most your child can get, with the best will in the world, is a 'C'? Is that child written off as a failure, or is there a Plan B?

I think the world is more competitive-much more so. I also think that while there are lots of children drilled to perform and inculcated with a very narrow view of what constitutes success (must be Oxbridge, must be in a profession or banking, etc) the world is still facing a shortage of creative, self-motivating, brave original thinkers. Having those attributes encouraged is very important for long-term success, and satisfaction.