To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

[CliftonGirl]

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

niceguy2 "I tell my kids B is a fail in this house."

So if one of your DCs got a B you'd tell them they had failed, have I got that right?

As for music, i suspect my attitude here won't be very well received either lol. I do have an exception for music, PE, RS, drama & art. Those I don't really care what they get and would rather they spent their time concentrating on the other more 'core' subjects instead.

Surely if you want your child to achieve the best of the ability you would want them to try hard in these subjects too in order to have a balanced education.

Besides music and maths are supposedly very closely linked and music is thought to help maths

Forgive me, I'm not a parent (though I am a child of pushy parents), but something someone said recently seems relevant here. She was talking about her experiences of teaching at Oxbridge, I think. She said that often, children whose parents were pushy often got to Oxbridge then floundered, if they'd not been given a chance to relax or taught how to self-motivate.

I think this can be true. I live in Oxford, have done for five years now, and you really do notice how some people act about it. You see parents going eagerly around with politely bored looking teenagers, and you think 'yeah, that's not going to work'. And then you see the ones who are bursting into tears all over the place because they didn't want to be doing a Law degree, and they didn't want to be with a load of other people who want to do Law degrees, but they'd never been given enough space to work out what they did want to do. I'm really sure that's not unique to Oxbridge, either.

I think it is horrible to set a child up to think they have to succeed at everything, that anything less than A is a failure, whatever. At some point your child is going to fail, aren't they? It is simply not possible to go through life without at some point finding you didn't get this one thing quite right. If a child hasn't been equipped to deal with that possibility, they are going to be fucked up.

I'm a pushy parent and I feel no shame. My children are growing up in a cut throat world and they need a good standard of numeracy and literacy to stand any chance of a job. It is likely that they will have to work well into old age and professional jobs are easier than unskilled work.

Round the world there is no shame in hard work. If there is a hong kong or an Indian or a chinese mumsnet there would be hesitation about making children work hard.

I don't think expecting a good standard of numeracy and literacy is being pushy, is it?

Saying that "a B is a fail in this house" however.............

Word but some people have to earn less than others, not everyone can be at the top.

Not that plumbers are a good example of this as the ones I know earn a bloody fortune!!!

Maybe its because I come from a poor background but I feel that you can be a the lower end of the income spectrum and not be able to afford everything you want, and not live in the biggest house, but still be happy and content. There is nothing wrong with being one of the average joes.

Obviously you don't want to think of your DC as having money worries or going without but I know people who earn vast amounts, at least £250,000 a year and they still have 'money worries' because its subjective to your situation. I would much rather that my DC had jobs in which they were fulfilled and found enjoyment than they can afford whatever their heart desires but don't have happiness.

I know I sound like a bloody hippy but there are lots of people who live average enough lives and are sufficiently content.

cory has summed it up with her: "As long as you are aware a) that it is possible to have all A*s and still not get into Oxbridge because the admissions tutors don't think you are an interesting enough thinker b) that getting into Oxbridge is not the end of your career: you will only be happy and do well there if you happen to be the right fit for that particular environment.

Or to put it another way: you can push your dc to learn everything in the books and get straight A's. But you can't push him to have interesting ideas or make valuable contributions to seminars because that has to come from inside him, not inside you..."

Also agree with niceguy, our parenting philosophy is very similar.

Exactly seeker.

Not everyone is capable of getting an A grade, it would make the grade pointless if everyone was.

Parents should want their child to be happy and reach their potential. When it comes to academic work they should encourage them to try to best and celebrate the results of that effort irrespective of the final grade. One child's C grade could be much harder to achieve than another child's A

So, telling your children they are failures because they get a B is now a "parenting philosophy", is it?

Hmmm...
Reminds me of something my sons pre achool teacher said to me the other week;
We had taken the dc to a battlefield site and they had the experience of falconry and holding owls.
Ds2 was very excited to tell his little friends about it. She said to me at pick up "you do such interesting things with your dc. They are so lucky"
I didn't really think about it much at the time, but maybe that's part of it.
Spending time with them on things they (and hopefully the whole family) enjoy.
It was very educational but fun too and outdoors! Ticks all my boxes for a good day out.

Which looks better to university admissions, the student who got a B at GCSE, an A at AS and an A at A Level, or the student who got straight As? I'm not sure the answer to that is always going to be the second student.

He gives 110% and used to have to watch kids giving perhaps only 60% effort achieve much more easily than him.

Yea I had that - same reason dyslexia. Though I was at University till I realized just how much more effort I was putting in and consequently led to diagnosis.

I worry I am pushing the DC - they do extra with me at home but one of the reasons for this is because they are showing particular problems - their teachers have identified them but are not enough of a problem to get extra help in school. I'm hoping if they do more now the issues will be less when they are older.

I do get what the OP means - we put in a lot of extra work and money into an area DS was struggling/behind with - went from coasting to soaring which I think helped decide his teacher to put in extra work in another problem area again dramatic improvement. The result massive confidence increase and happier DC - makes us wish we'd done it earlier.

The down side is the fight to get 20-30 minutes in morning and evenings work out of tired DC especially when I'd rather they could just play. Other people, if they find out, do label it pushy to do the extra with the DC despite the original problems being the reason.

So if one of your DCs got a B you'd tell them they had failed, have I got that right?

Actually no...my exact quote which I borrowed from an episode of Glee is "An A- is an asian F." but for the purposes of this discussion i didn't want to sound too elitist!

but there are lots of people who live average enough lives and are sufficiently content.

But that philosophy means that you think your kids are just average and that the best they should hope for is "sufficiently content". Is that really what you think of your kids? Average...

I would much rather that my DC had jobs in which they were fulfilled and found enjoyment than they can afford whatever their heart desires but don't have happiness.

Me too! And once they've got their degrees then they can pursue whatever career they want. If they want to spend the rest of their lives emptying bins then that is a choice THEY have made and I will respect that. Honestly!

What I think is worse is if they wanted to do more but can't because they don't have a sufficient level of education.

What if they don't want to get a degree?

What if at 18 they don't feel ready to study for a degree and want to work for a few years first?

I agree with most of the comments on this post, those that talk of balance, helping to achieve best, being happy etc.

The minority of pushy posters, including OP, make my blood boil. They are children for goodness sakes, let them play.

I do not give a shiny shite if my children get in to Oxbridge or can play the clarinet whilst in the womb.

I only care that they are happy.

I think when you push, you don't care about your childs happiness, you care about being able to say to everyone 'my child is clever.'

This really worries me this thread and the attitudes of some of the parents here. I work with medical students and last week we had another student suicide! What sort of world is this where a 20 year old kills themselves over failing a exam? Now I know that this young woman may have has other pressures etc but The situation last week wasn't the first and has made me see that i will be teaching our children about the journey of life and how they always have choice and options to succeed at their own goals. It's terrifying to me how much pressure can come from families to simply achieve! Achieve at what? I want my children to feel supported, encouraged and loved! I want them to try to be the best at what they want to be, be that a gardener, teacher, chef, nurse or astronaut!

I don't think expecting a good standard of numeracy and literacy is being pushy, is it?

Unfortunately were we live seeker it does seem to be.

In my view, precisely because the world is getting ever more competitive, it is key to enable children to discover what they like, ideally are good at, but, most importantly, are interested enough in to carry them through, and that doesn't happen via academics (in the narrow sense) alone, beyond the good grounding in the key disciplines that you need to access almost everything. It sounds like (picking an example from the posts above) weegiemum's kids have had the space to discover their 'thing', which will take them a long way in terms of 'achieving'.

I do 'push' my 8yo son on occasion. This is because he is a natural coaster and struggles with anything he has to put effort into. But I do it very much in the context of it being in order to give him choices later on. Not because I want him to 'achieve' a certain thing. I want him to have access to whatever it is that lights his fire.
The rest is giving access to a wide range of ideas and experiences.

(I am an Oxford grad with a doctorate and it has, of course, served me well as well as having been a wonderful experience. But it is really not the be-all and end-all to success)

My parents (both in education) used to say that there was a form of rigid pushiness that was actually very bad for life-long achievement. They perceived it as coming most often from parents who hadn't had much education themselves. It was very narrowly focused on school marks, learning only for the purpose of employment and no other reason, and very conventional. E.G. parents who told their kids that unless they got into Oxbridge the parents would not fund uni because other Unis were a waste of time. Parents who would not pay for theatre trips, art trips etc etc (waste of time), who didn't want the children to do sport (waste of time), etc etc, and put massive guilt trips on any (perceived) failure to excel.

Sometimes it worked, often it didn't. My mother used to say you could coach a child up to 'A' level, then it got a lot harder to get good results through sheer effort/cramming if underlying intelligence and talent was lacking.

Part of pushing your children effectively has got to be about being very realistic about their natural limitations. If they already need to put in hours and hours just to cope with A level, how on earth will they manage in uni seminars or with the weekly reading list on a demanding course?

So your "parenting philosophy" comes from watching "Glee", does it, niceguy2.

Gosh, you really do take your children's education seriously, don't you?

People bandy the word "happy" round. But what is "happy"?

Imo, children are more likely to grow up with a capacity to be happy/find happiness if they come from a loving secure background, but also have been given the tools to forge a secure future for themselves.

Part of that toolkit is the capacity to work hard, especially at subjects that may not be their favourite, and not become demotivated if they try and fail at something. In other words, they need tenacity and resilience.

That behaviour can be modelled by parents and encouraged by schools. The grades that follow such behaviour may or may not be As/A*s/Firsts, but that is less important than that the child feels successful on his or her terms and can carry that confidence into the wider world.

no niceguy2 thats totally incorrect.

I haven't said that encourage being average, I encourage hard work, dedication and commitment which in turn makes you perform to best of your ability.

What I've said is that I encourage my DC to pick careers which they believe will fulfil them and where they will find enjoyment, not where they earn the most. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying you can be a nursery worker or primary school teacher if thats what makes you happy as long as long as you are also saying that they can become and astronaut or attempt world domination if that is what makes them happy. When people are talking about Oxbridge, or competition for jobs from China, they are talking about a certain kind of career.

If being average is what makes my DC happy then yes I'm happy for them to be average, it took me some time to come to that conclusion but I do believe it. I'm someone who agrees with your idea that its the results where it really counts but thats only if having those good results will get you what you want. What is so wrong with being someone who works in a job you love, has a great family and great social relationships, and enjoys your life but could also be grouped into the 'average' category in regards to net value. I use the phrase "you are the architect of your own future" all the time at home and that is my main belief, find what you like, even if its emptying the bins, work at it and be happy don't just 'get money'.

I feel really strongly that some people get too caught up in a particular idea of success. An old neighbour had been to Cambridge, she was earning a middleish wage in a job she didn't like thanks to a degree in a subject she had never really loved, she had married a builder with zero qualifications who's business paid for all the things she did love; expensive home, lots of travel, a horse. Having much revered qualifications doesn't equal success you can do just as well if not better without them. A large percentage of the worlds weathiest and most original never started or finished their degrees; Mark Zuckerberg, Jamal Edwards, Bill Gates.

Also I have to say your disregard for music, arts and sport totally baffles me. The reason I and the majority of my contemporaries are in the top 5% of earnings is through our work in those three areas.

What if they don't want to get a degree?

Why would you not want to get a degree? I spent three years of my life lurching from party to party, pissed up in some bar or other and trying my damnest to get laid! Best three years of my life lol. At the end of which someone handed me a degree! My sister is currently at her first year of uni and it looks like that hasn't changed. It still looks like party after party. You have the rest of your lives to work. Why rush into it?

That said.....nowadays you do have to consider the cost of a degree versus what you want to do. If my child wants to be say for example go into IT then I'd seriously consider if a degree is worth the investment. But then I'd expect to see an alterate plan to achieve what they want.

It's not about pushing your child at all costs to achieve and making them feel like a failure if they do not. That's missing my point. It's having high expectations and then supporting them to achieve it. If they don't then you do what is necessary to put it right. If that means they have to resit the exam latter then so be it.

It's about ensuring your kids feel that if they work hard that they can achieve anything. It's not about "Oh well done, you clever thing...you got a C. You are now erm...average!"

But what if you are average?

We received ds's report card. It was interesting to read that he has excellent note taking and when working on a project he was able to direct his group on how to search the internet and use factual books for information. He apparently also told them which sites to ignore on the internet.

I've always insisted on homework being done. Ds comes right in and gets it all done in one night instead of 4, so he can have fun. He practices his spelling with me by asking me to do it. Dd can be lazier but it gets done to a high standard and she is 1's across the board at school.

Not through me being a pushy parent but encouraging them and them having good dynamic teachers who make them want to learn more.

I'm a nursery nurse and dh is a plumber. We're happy and that's all that I want for my children. To be happy. Dd used to say age 4, I'm going to be a lollipop lady and help people across the road safely. Shows her caring side and empathy at a young age. So all round bright/empathetic little person who has matured into a lovely young lady.