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re Offensive terminology

275 replies

DoJo · 01/06/2013 00:52

I will confess from the off that this is kind of a thread about a thread, but really didn't want to de-rail/feed the troll depending on how you view it. However, it was mentioned a few times that 'moron' was an offensive term, and as I had never come across someone offended by it, I turn to the mighty google to research its origins. Whilst it turns out that the term was coined by Henry H Goddard to (and I'm quoting directly from wikipedia here)
"denote mild mental retardation" and "to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale".

'Fair enough' I think to myself, glad I know this as I wouldn't want to use a term which anyone would find offensive. However, the article goes on to describe the other terms used by Goddard on the same scale which include 'idiot' 'imbecile' and 'stupid'. Now, I am pretty sure that I have never seen anyone lambasted for using any of those terms on here, and also reasonably convinced that their move into everyday terminology has softened their impact significantly. So why is moron still considered (by some at least) more offensive than those other terms?

Disclaimer - genuinely not trying to start a bun fight. I just find the origins of words interesting and would be interested to know why some provoke a stronger reaction than others.

OP posts:
dementedma · 02/06/2013 20:38

Having read this thread it seems as someone, somewhere is going to take offence whatever you say.

Pagwatch · 02/06/2013 21:03

I agree with that DoJo
I am rarely bothered by people using words that I might find difficult but which they clearly are just using in a neutral way.
But it is much harder to shrug at someone using a word that has been shouted aggressively - the previous context for its use does taint it iyswim.

I also think people are free to use whatever words they like. I just feel differently about anyone who uses shitty words relating to SN or disability as abuse. But I am sure they woud not care about that.

The 'some one will always be offended' is just a cop out tbh.

zzzzz · 02/06/2013 21:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LoSiento · 02/06/2013 21:09

demented it looks like you offended zzzzz with that comment.

MerryMarigold · 02/06/2013 21:12

Maybe her name is offensive, to someone who has a loved one with dementia.

Pagwatch · 02/06/2013 21:16

I don't think zzzz is offended. I think she just thinks the comment is twatty. I certainly did.

Pagwatch · 02/06/2013 21:17

Hahahahaha . I see what you did there Merry.
Really . Hahahahahaha

MerryMarigold · 02/06/2013 21:17

I meant it, Pag. Not meaning to be funny.

Pagwatch · 02/06/2013 21:24
Confused Ok merry. I am very sorry I misunderstood and mocked your post.

I have to say though i don't really understand why zzzz can't just question a pretty daft post without there being an unspoken and slightly ridiculous subtext

hazeyjane · 02/06/2013 21:27

Clearly not, dementedma. There are an almost endless supply of words that are not offensive, I really don't see why it is that hard to think about the language you are using.

There are some words that almost everyone knows are insulting and offensive - if you are a decent person you don't use these words, and you tell your children that it is not acceptable to use these words.

Then there are words that people use, and they don't realise that the word causes hurt and offence - if you are a decent person then when someone points out to you the very good reasons why those words are hurtful and offensive, then you don't use that word and tell your children that it is not acceptable to use these words.

It is easy.

zzzzz · 02/06/2013 21:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MerryMarigold · 02/06/2013 21:35

At the same time, I was making a point. This thread has become about mong/ spaz/ retard, but I don't see why demented is any different...

...I don't have personal experience of dementia, but I know people who do and can imagine that it would be hurtful for them.

Pagwatch · 02/06/2013 21:40

I think if that is a point you wished to make then you should do so rather than implying it was what another poster meant.

MerryMarigold · 02/06/2013 21:43

I wasn't implying zzzz was offended by it but that someone may be.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/06/2013 21:44

I don't know if I'm missing something ... but demented's name is a name. It's not an insult and she's presumably not intending it that way?

If her name were 'DementedOldLadiesSmellOfWee' or 'DementedOldPeopleShouldBeEuthenised', then yes, it'd be offensive and we'd assume it was meant that way.

I don't see how when it's a name, because unlike the other words mentioned, it's not one I know of being used as an insult.

dementedma · 02/06/2013 21:49

zzzzz wow!
No, I don't use nigger, yid or paki. Not sure what the point of the word "too" is, at the end of that accusation, as I don't use any of the previous words listed either.
What gives you the right to make an assumption and accusation like that,based on a comment that across society different people take offence at a wide range of words?
For example, a previous thread on the names people tell their children to use for their genitals included many posts saying their little dds used the word "fanny". My point was that here in Scotland, that word is extremely offensive and would upset many people if used by a child.How DARE you accuse me of using the words listed in your post!
Would you be offended if I called you an arsehole?

MerryMarigold · 02/06/2013 21:51

You're right LRD, in that it is not used here as an insult, but would it be ok to call yourself 'spazmama' as a general micktake of yourself?

I could easily call 'demented' if they were driving ridiculously or shouting in the street so I think it can definitely be used as an insult, although not that frequently and probably more in describing someone else than as a face to face insult.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/06/2013 21:54

No, I don't think it would be ok.

That's what I'm saying. I think they are different types of words, 'spaz' and 'demented'.

You have to add quite a lot of intention to make 'demented' into an agist/disablist insult.

You don't have to add anything to make 'spaz' into an insult, because it is a word that has no meaning at all except as an insult.

OTOH, 'spastic' can be both a medical term in current use, and an insult, so more caution is required.

zzzzz · 02/06/2013 21:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dementedma · 02/06/2013 21:56

Oh, and as I am the main carer for my dementia ridden father, I am not dementia-ist either!

zzzzz · 02/06/2013 21:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/06/2013 21:57

Anything 'could' be offensive. That's in the nature of language, as posters on both sides of the debate have said.

It doesn't mean that nothing is offensive, or that it's ok to throw your hands in the air and decide to become offended at the very idea of taking care over your language. IMO.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/06/2013 21:58

demented, honestly, I really don't think anyone thinks you are!

lougle · 02/06/2013 22:02

Late to this thread.

Theoretically, the work of Sassure sums up nicely why we have evolving insults. He said that words are simply 'signs' and 'signifiers'. In other words, we have a concept in our mind, and we have a label we give that concept. Together, they become a word.

So, picture an object with 2 wheels, pedals, a saddle and a handlebar. That object is given the label 'bycicle.' Now, when you use the word bycicle, the person hearing your utterance pictures an object with 2 wheels, pedals, a saddle and a handlebar.

The words themselves (as in the 'labels) are neutral - they carry no meaning. It is the understanding that people have, the image they conjour in their minds, that gives the 'word' meaning.

More practically, I will challenge any word which disparages people with Special Needs/Disabilities/Additional Needs. I will do it again, and again, and again.

I've been known to email MNHQ with the history of a certain word (e.g. cretin) and explain why it is offensive.

I don't care if some people will have to think a little bit harder and use a non pejorative term to describe a person or a situation. I don't care if some people feel that their right to free speech is being curtailed. If they weren't so insensitive in the first place, they wouldn't use the words.

Why should my DD, who already has enough disabilities, put up with children mimicking her in the playground - children who, in her naivety, she thinks are trying to be friends? Why should my DH have to go up to them and ask them not to say those words about her? She's 7 years old.

As a parent of a child with a disability, it's my job to protect my DD. I also feel, by extension, that I have a responsibility to any child/adult with a disability.

MerryMarigold · 02/06/2013 22:02

I still think demented is always an insult if you are applying it to a person. It's not exactly a compliment and rarely would you use it as a medical term to actually describe someone with dementia - so therefore it is different from 'spastic' and more like 'spaz'.

But if dementedma with firsthand experience feels comfortable with it, then I am ok with it too Smile.