re Offensive terminology

[DoJo]

I will confess from the off that this is kind of a thread about a thread, but really didn't want to de-rail/feed the troll depending on how you view it. However, it was mentioned a few times that 'moron' was an offensive term, and as I had never come across someone offended by it, I turn to the mighty google to research its origins. Whilst it turns out that the term was coined by Henry H Goddard to (and I'm quoting directly from wikipedia here)
"denote mild mental retardation" and "to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale".

'Fair enough' I think to myself, glad I know this as I wouldn't want to use a term which anyone would find offensive. However, the article goes on to describe the other terms used by Goddard on the same scale which include 'idiot' 'imbecile' and 'stupid'. Now, I am pretty sure that I have never seen anyone lambasted for using any of those terms on here, and also reasonably convinced that their move into everyday terminology has softened their impact significantly. So why is moron still considered (by some at least) more offensive than those other terms?

Disclaimer - genuinely not trying to start a bun fight. I just find the origins of words interesting and would be interested to know why some provoke a stronger reaction than others.

Agree with zzzzz

'you're brother's an idiot'? Don't have much problem with that - (because idiot has moved a long way from the medical definition - and it sounds as if the medical definition came afterwards anyway).

'You're brother's a retard/spaz' (both have been used). Have HUGE problems with that - because they are words that are highlighting his disabilities - and using them to hurt his siblings. They are taking part of him - his disability and using that in an offensive way. Personally I think anyone who defends their right to use these terms is an ignorant fool, or actually a, fucking idiot (and I would be quite happy to be offensive to them - would not use the word retard or spaz though).

And it's quite simple I think really.

Ask someone to describe an idiot (I would guess you get a description of someone doing a foolish thing).
Ask someone to describe a retard - and in the UK you'll get a description of someone with learning disabilities.
Ask someone to describe a spaz - and in the UK you'll get a description of someone with CP.

It's not hard to see why some words are more offensive than others.

Yes cultural differences exist, but it's usually best to pay some attention to the cultural norms of the place you live.

Very well put saintly, I think it's quite obvious when you put it that way.

However, that still leaves terms like 'monging out' and 'spazzing out' that some people still won't know the origins of.

"Don't think AND have never had it explained to you."

Had you said "Don't think OR have never had it explained to you." I would agree, but your original post seemed to imply that only those who don't think would ever need a term explained to them, which I think is unrealistic and presupposes that anyone who doesn't fully research any term they hear or use isn't concerned whether they offend or not.

I think a better indicator of whether someone is thoughtless or unconcerned as to whether they are offensive or not is HOW they respond when someone points out that they have used an offensive term. Someone who is apologetic that they have caused offence and wants to understand better the reasons why a word is inappropriate probably made a genuine mistake, whereas someone who defends their right to use a term, or dismisses any explanation as 'PC gone mad' or 'over sensitive' is probably not too concerned about their impact on others.

I think a lot depends on personal feelings. I HATE the word stupid. I understand why people use it and where it comes from but I know people who have grown up with fairly severe dyslexia and it was a term thrown at them all the time. As far as I can see if someone with severe dyslexia is functioning in the "normal" range they are a hell of a lot brighter than most people. The invention and application of coping strategies is amazing. So everytime I hear the word stupid I want to scream "what do you know about it"

Oh yes I accept that the yoof may not understand the origins, but it's easy enough to explain. DS2 used mong - picked up from school- & I explained to him what it meant, he has chosen not to use it since - and has picked up his friends on it (and told me when certain friends have continued to use it). It's up to him to decide how his friends are using the term - particularly if they refer to his brother in the same sentence - and to react accordingly.

Sorry - realise that potentially sounded needlessly nit-picky re AND vs OR, just wanted to make it clear that my post was based on my interpretation of what you had said rather than a semantic bashing situation!

Januarymadness But do you accept that most people won't mean it in a way that is intended to demean the people you are talking about? I can completely understand hating a word for those reasons, but I hope that if I casually called a government policy stupid or told a story about how I did something utterly stupid that you would give me a chance to at least try to use different terms before writing me off as an unfeeling arsehole*. I might not modify my use of the word 'stupid' altogether but I would certainly make an effort not to use it around you.

*anyone else finding it ironic that the words we normally consider the most offensive are the ones which seem least controversial on this thread?!

zzzzz I completely agree that it seems inconceivable that some people don't have any idea about the origins of some of the words under discussion, but I think that giving someone the chance to learn and apologise should be the default position.

However, I also accept that it's easy for me to be 'generous' about giving people the benefit of the doubt, as these terms don't affect me on a personal level beyond a general desire for people to be pleasant to one another and to believe that most people are fundamentally 'good'. If I was in the position that it sounds like you are in, I think I would find it a lot harder, be quicker to take offence and be less inclined to believe someone who claims ignorance, so I can appreciate that I am lucky that most of my musings are theoretical rather than based on experience of having these terms used specifically against me or my family.

Just read through this thread and nodding along with so many comments. Such a rational conversation about a delicate topic!

It is difficult sometimes to know where to draw the line with acceptable terminology, as demonstrated in this thread... so I thought I'd add a light-hearted song to help

erm.... I wasn't trying to diminish the importance of this topic btw, it is close to my heart on many levels..

Not that it matters, but 'moron' just means 'dull' in Greek. Hence 'oxymoron' (=sharp/dull). It's not from a Greek island.

pag your post is brilliant. And sad. I totally agree.

I think though, while it's true language will always be re-coined and become offensive, it's often not difficult to try to use words that don't upset people.

Sorry been out, this is a reply to a question asked a while ago. Only one kid has ever made the the 'flid' connection and realised that it's really inappropriate- the kids are always appalled at the fact the thalidomide situation was altogether avoidable. I do sometimes wonder whether I should bring up the misuse of the word but as it's not a commonly used insult in these parts I've chosen not to- it's a fine line between educating and putting ideas into pupils' heads sometimes.
It's interesting though how some words are used with us not considering the origin of the word (we all call children kids round here but I know some mnetters hate it- 'they're not goats', I hadn't made that connection before coming on here.). I still die a bit inside when I think of the time I called a 15 yr old pupil a pussy, I genuinly thought it meant they were a warm, soft personality (like a kitten, I thought I was being nice). The class response told me I was wrong!

Oh yes. I think that is mostly waht I meant. I hate the word, I have a reasonable and justifyable reason for that hate. But I accept that that is my problem as long as others are using it to describe a thing or attitudes rather than to define a person.

This reminds me of a conversation between my family a few years ago.

My dh is mixed race and we got on to talking about what terms were racist, I commented that half caste was no longer acceptable terminology. My sister and parents, whilst they agreed said that it was ok for an older generation (my grandma was the example) as they didn't know better. I said that if I ever heard her use it I would politely explain to her why it was wrong. I was told that I shouldn't do that and it would be rude if I did as it would upset her. My sister's dc has a few special needs, though mostly hidden so has not been on the receiving end of any disabalist comments yet. I asked how she would feel if someone used an outdated term like mong to describe her dc just because they didn't know better.

For some people some terms are acceptable and others not, with no apparent reason why, or indeed any consistency to which are and which aren't. It's possibly just lazy in that they use words that their social circle use without any independent thought about them.

Some words have evolved and spread far beyond their original usage that people wouldn't think to use them as an insult for the people they were originally intended to describe, ie people with learning disabilities.

How many people with children with SN have ever had them insulted by other children calling them an idiot for example?

But words like spaz and cretin and mong are still firmly attached to their original meaning and are still levelled at those with certain disabilities. So they still cause offence when used as general insults because there are people who have to hear those terms being used to hurt and marginalise their children.

Not knowing you are being offensive is only really a defence if you generally don't think much about what you are saying and you have never had it explained to you

No, I think increasingly there is always some subgroup somewhere offended by some word, and increasingly on the behalf of someone else.

Btw loon is an American term, from the loon, a wading bird, apparently it comes from an old English word that Lumme and Lummox also come from, and means clumsy or ungainly ( the loon looks very awkward on land)

Loony is from lunatic, dealing with supposed madness at the full moon.

No doubt someone is now going to pop up and claim they are offended by lummox....

The term moron is not an accepted medical term. It's an insult used when someone has done something stupid. I'll continue to use it that way on MN and in RL.

The loon also has a distinctive and loud call which is somewhat like laughing.

So if someone says "you sound like a loon" they are probably not referring to a medical/psychiatric diagnosis.

Have to say I have never heard of a 'loon' being a bird and I have always assumed it was short for lunatic. So I imagine a lot of British people would also make that assumption.

Someone sounding like a loon would mean sounding like a lunatic to me. It's not a phrase I'd use when talking to anyone with MH problems, certainly. (Or at all, probably.)

I think any right minded person would would stop using terms like the R word or spaz or mong once they had it's meaning explained to them. Wouldn't they?

Ahh, its. I blame autocorrect.

No, I think increasingly there is always some subgroup somewhere offended by some word, and increasingly on the behalf of someone else.

What is a 'subgroup'?

I guess my ds belongs to one of these 'subgroups', and as his mother of course I get offended 'on his behalf' by words insulting to people with learning disabilities.