re Offensive terminology

[DoJo]

I will confess from the off that this is kind of a thread about a thread, but really didn't want to de-rail/feed the troll depending on how you view it. However, it was mentioned a few times that 'moron' was an offensive term, and as I had never come across someone offended by it, I turn to the mighty google to research its origins. Whilst it turns out that the term was coined by Henry H Goddard to (and I'm quoting directly from wikipedia here)
"denote mild mental retardation" and "to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale".

'Fair enough' I think to myself, glad I know this as I wouldn't want to use a term which anyone would find offensive. However, the article goes on to describe the other terms used by Goddard on the same scale which include 'idiot' 'imbecile' and 'stupid'. Now, I am pretty sure that I have never seen anyone lambasted for using any of those terms on here, and also reasonably convinced that their move into everyday terminology has softened their impact significantly. So why is moron still considered (by some at least) more offensive than those other terms?

Disclaimer - genuinely not trying to start a bun fight. I just find the origins of words interesting and would be interested to know why some provoke a stronger reaction than others.

If a person insults a disabled person in public I think it should be dealt with as a racist comment would, like a hate crime. People need to know this is not acceptable.

I have heard an adult on a public bus say, 'I don't want that mong (my friend's DC) anywhere near me. They shouldn't be allowed out in public.'

IMHO, that person was a worthless piece of shit.

I am aware that there are people who eant to lock up other people and throw away the key.
Or want hanging brought back.

want not eant

What sort of upbringing or influences have these people been exposed to to make them think it is acceptable to treat someone in this way. It makes me so

This is a fascinating thread.

I agree that we shouldn't use a term in the hearing of someone who finds it offensive, whatever that term might be. I also agree that there are many words, particularly deriving from words for those with mental health problems or disabilities, that really are offensive in most people's eyes.

However, I find it odd that some of the posts I most agree with (Pagwatch and infamouspoo for example) are peppered with other insults that are offensive to other sections of society. Personally I find cunt and twat very offensive (why use female genitalia to express how awful someone is?) I also find dick, wanker and prick offensive (again, why use male genitalia?). I would never consider calling someone a 'worthless piece of shit', I find that worse that most of the other insults being condemned. And I agree that bastard shouldn't be any more acceptable than mong or cretin. My children are bastards and I am sensitive about it. They have never had a dad and I think it is still something that raises eyebrows, at least in the area where I live.

As another interesting (and sad) aside, the word I have to pull children at school up on more than almost any other is 'special'. They seem to have absorbed that as the word to use for anyone who is behaving in a manner they consider different and, instead of being the PC phrase for learning difficulties, it is now replacing more obvious insults like retard. I wonder how long it will be before someone looks at someone else turns to their neighbour and whispers, 'wow, he's a bit 'additional' isn't he!'

If people are articulate then here is no reason to use derogatory terms to 'get at' someone. I find people with poor vocabulary use them more than others.

Ilikethebreeze
I am not sure what your point is about 'we can agree to differ can't we'
You are raising points . I am disagreeing with some of them. I have not been rude to you. What point are you making?
I m not going t say 'oh well , yes it's fine' because this is my child day to day existence. We are not debating whether we like Eastenders or not.

I also don't understand your point about hanging? Are you suggesting that because I think an adult shouting 'fucking retard' at my son is a worthless piece of shit that I m a hanging and flogging type. Because that is quite a leap.

But yes, if someone openly sneers at a person with SN then they are a worthless piece of shit in my book. They may learn some empathy, they may learn to behave with a modicum of humanity at which point they will cease to be a human shite. But until they do they are pretty worthless.

I think some a lot of teenagers (and to some extent people in thier early 20's) are unaware of the meanings behind a lot of the insults they use like spaz and mong.

I personally used to use phrases or words that i was unaware of thier true meaning when I was younger. For example was 'away and raffle your doughnut'. This was a phrase my gran used to use a lot and it got passed on without me realising what it actually ment. Another would be words like 'tube'.

Generally insults in our house are 'Bawbag' or 'fanny'. I frequently tell DH to stop acting like a Bawbag or a fanny. I have on occasion called myself a mong when I have done something silly (like dropped my iphone down the toilet) but its not an insult I would use on other people.

Language constantly evolves and changes. In 20 years time some of the phrases and expressions we use now will be deemed as wrong. A lot of young people use the word gay to describe something they don't like eg: 'that movie was gay'. They don't associate this as an insult to gay people but it is. I also find a lot of people use the expression 'paddy' to describe their child's behaviour so a temper tantrum becomes a 'paddy', but this is a racial slur to Irish people.

what's a spa? Another abbreviation of spastic?

For some people some terms are acceptable and others not, with no apparent reason why, or indeed any consistency to which are and which aren't.

I think most of us would find it impossible to not ever say any word which might cause offence to another person. Words don't always have one definitive meaning to all people in all parts of the country. And, as has been said, language evolves and meanings change for different generations.

I think that all we can do is listen to why someone is offended by something and decide for ourselves if we think that is reasonable and then act accordingly.

Someone feeling offence is not a definitive reason in itself, to stop using a specific word or phrase. Someone's feeling of offence does not automatically trump someone else's right to choose their own words and I think there is sometimes a perception that it does.

Most people would try not to cause hurt or upset to vulnerable people. you are never going to be able to do much about the kind of person who would purposely insult/upset someone with SN.

I shouldnt have to put up with it every single fucking time I push my child out of the door. Nor should my child.

I am amazed that people still do this. Not saying for one second that I do not believe you, but I actually find it utterly and completely amazing and bewildering that people in the UK in 2013 are still so backward thinking, so fearful, so spooked and so ill educated that they cannot deal with the fact that some human beings are born different to most. Even as children, when we are at our least emotionally evolved and at our most defensive/competitive, and acutely aware of difference and social hierarchy, I cannot imagine a second when any of my children (or me, or any of my family) would have sneered, jeered or belittled someone out loud and in public for their disability.

They/I may have stared, we may have gawped, we may have been uncomfortable or lost for words, nevertheless we would have had an inbuilt sense of decency and empathy that made us just look away, or do our best to ignore, and just accept.

What is it about some people that makes them so devoid of empathy and compassion?

not ignore in a bad way....

It's alright fell. We all knew what you meant .

Yesterday we were having lunch in a beach side place in Spain when a family came in including an adult with Down syndrome. As the food came out he got quite noisy.
A few people turned as the noise caught their attention but then they just recognised he was just clearly looking forward to his food and carried on with their own meals and chat.
No peering, muttering or tutting.
It should just be like that.

But why isn't it always like that? What the fuck is wrong with us? Still?

It's the urge of people who gain ther self esteem by feeling better than others, combined with a fear of the unusual/unpredictable, bundled up with a huge dollop of people who are utter arseholes

On some level some folk see those with disabilities, especially learning disabilities, as less than people. It's under the surface but it's there.
When people say 'I couldn't do what you do' they are often expressing support and mean well. But when you think about it it implies that I chose to care for and love my son in a way that I didn't chose to love my other too.
If I said ' I am sending dd to boarding school because caring for her is just too hard' people would be horrified. People regularly ask me could I not get residential care for DS. The assumption is that i wouldn't miss him. That looking after him is a duty I chose to bear rather than that I loved him the minute I held him and can't wait for him to get home each evening because he is lovely.

I am not being horrible btw, most people are lovely and mean well. But there is a definate difference in how we as a society view those with disability. We can view them negatively or kindly but we find it incredibky difficult to view them as just the same as us.

I think this happens because civilisation is a very thin veneer. Scratch the surface and you are never far away from a Lord of the Flies type mentality, where the powerful are incredibly cruel to the weak.

When you think about it, it is very easy to go from a normal life to one where your child (or you) has a disability. This scares the shit out of people and I think they try to distance themselves from this reality by making out in their heads that disabled people are so 'other' that it couldn't possibly happen to them. I don't know why this translates into being cruel, except that deep down I don't think that many people are very nice.

It's the urge of people who gain ther self esteem by feeling better than others,

Absolutely Pag. They are the same people who bully the quiet kids, or the clever kids, or the prettier kids at school, because they feel threatened or (needlessly) alienated by them. They are people who often have been dragged up, like animals, by stupid parents who teach them that survival of the fittest means survival of the person who can punch hardest and mock the loudest. And as a rule these people can't amount to much in life, but one thing they can always so is breed. And so it goes on.

do not so. Damn My Autocorrect To Hell.

I view each and every person as unique, including multiples.
So I see a disabled person as unique too, and not a homogenous mass.

good points karma.
It always shocks me to see what happens when a country is in a full blown war situation that fully affects the citizens.
How some of them behave, or end up behaving.

Yes. Tehre is nothing quite like war to bring out the animal in a human being.

I think a lot of what Patgwatch has said underlines for me the importance of intent - the words someone uses aren't as important as the fact that they are trying to hurt, belittle or judge someone else. I think I would find it equally offensive if someone used perfectly neutral terminology to convey the same hurtful sentiments, but because the shorthand for being a complete arse exists, the decision to use it just demonstrates someone's inherent unpleasantness in a quicker and easier to spot way. In as much as this can then be a useful signpost towards whether someone is the kind of person whose opinions are so vile that they can be written off as a bad lot, it also means that occasionally someone who doesn't realise or misunderstands the terminology can accidentally mark themselves out as someone who holds repellent beliefs. Hopefully those who feel this most keenly and are most affected will retain the grace and generosity to allow anyone who might fall into the latter category the chance to learn and make amends, but it's got to be difficult to even hope that it's a misunderstanding when you are so used to people going out of their way to be hurtful.