re Offensive terminology

[DoJo]

I will confess from the off that this is kind of a thread about a thread, but really didn't want to de-rail/feed the troll depending on how you view it. However, it was mentioned a few times that 'moron' was an offensive term, and as I had never come across someone offended by it, I turn to the mighty google to research its origins. Whilst it turns out that the term was coined by Henry H Goddard to (and I'm quoting directly from wikipedia here)
"denote mild mental retardation" and "to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale".

'Fair enough' I think to myself, glad I know this as I wouldn't want to use a term which anyone would find offensive. However, the article goes on to describe the other terms used by Goddard on the same scale which include 'idiot' 'imbecile' and 'stupid'. Now, I am pretty sure that I have never seen anyone lambasted for using any of those terms on here, and also reasonably convinced that their move into everyday terminology has softened their impact significantly. So why is moron still considered (by some at least) more offensive than those other terms?

Disclaimer - genuinely not trying to start a bun fight. I just find the origins of words interesting and would be interested to know why some provoke a stronger reaction than others.

Being Canadian, where the call of the loon (the bird - a low sad sounding hollow sound) is synonymous with summer, if someone calls me a loon, I don't think they are calling me anything to do with the bird.

Loon, when used as a deogatory term, is a short form for lunatic. As an adjective, it is 'loony'. To test this theory, I asked my son (14) what a loon was. He said "a black and white bird like a duck". I then asked "if someone says you are a loon, what are they saying?" His response - "they are saying I am bat-crap bonkers".

From the land of the loon - that couldn't be clearer.

there's always someone along who wants to use these words even after it's been explained carefully. those people would be unlikely to use racist terms on MN. sigh

sallyingforth it's fine to use on MN, as long as you mean to use it as an insult. I'm sure you will receive appropriate replies. It's your call.
Maybe best to use some words in RL only where you'll be with like minded people who may understand the context and your intention a lot better than strangers on MN will.

zzzz and anybody else who think I'm being callous... I'm German, people make Kraut, Towel and Nazi comments towards me, but I chose to ignore because I know who and what I am and it's their opinion which is their problem not mine... get the drift?

Talking about offensive terminology, I often wondered if gay men are offended by people using bugger as a swear word, not as an insult but as a general all-purpose expletive, as in "I buggered that up" or "oh bugger I've lost my keys"?

I find the word 'cunt' offensive however it is still widely used on MN, many saying it's fine because it's been 'reclaimed'.

Do you not like the word cunt because it's considered one of the worst words to use HoHo, or because you feel its use is making negative assumptions about you as a woman/your fanjo?

I think one factor is how specific an insult is. Moron/ idiot are general descriptions of intelligence, which is a slightly arbitary concept anyway. Mongol/ spaz are directly linked to specific conditions, and therefore directly insulting to people with those conditions. (Bonus points to Mongol for simulataneously insulting people with Downs Syndrome and the population with a mere two syllables). They are words I have challenged and explained in the classroom.

My uncle was brain damaged at birth. In the 80s I grew up with "mentally handicaped" being used to describe his condition (he had the mental age of a 3 yr old). I know it's an outdated phrase, but I haven't found that "special needs" or "learning difficulties" really covers the extent of his abilities, being far removed from the issues I encounter in a mainstream school environment where those labels also apply. Whatever the label is, it will always be sensitive describing a person without the means to fight their own corner.

And swear words being accepted through this discussion. By and large we know where we stand in level of offensiveness on those, although there are local variations.

I find cunt has a lot more shock value due to its rarity compared to other swear words.

When talking to pupils about swearing (normally when they've asked if I ever swear) I tell them it's best saved for special occasions like sharp pain, and if they use it too much it becomes meaningless. They usually understand that.

Telling a class of inner city girls studying Shakespeare about the origin of bastard was interesting. I don't think that anyone in the room wasn't one. Me included. They were astonished to hear what an issue it was when I was born, when it's such a normal state of family life now.

zzzzz
And do you enjoy the comments?

• Frankly I don't care what people call me as I am confident in who and what I am and I have a sense of humour

Would you rejoice in them being directed at your children?

• My children don't really care either especially as they see themselves as 'bitsers' as they're bits of this and bits of that and we all have a sense of humour; and if they get upset about being called something I tell them that those people who are calling them names etc. have nothing better to do with their time and just to ignore them. They're current favourite phrase, which I did not teach them is 'you are what you say you are'

Does it make a difference that you (presumabley) are not a nazi?

• Nope it doesn't and shouldn't make a difference whether I'm a Nazi or not. A Nazi would feel justified in his/her standpoint and I just don't care

Would your life be better without the German stereotypes being lobbed at you?

• that's a strong nope as I'm not bothered by stereotypes and think those who have to attack the stereotype are the ones that need to take a good look at their 'reasoning' as to what they find offensive... I am proud to be a German, geek, scatterbrain, sometimes failing mother, always loving mother, sometimes rational, sometimes irrational, sometimes vacant (in the literal sense as I do suffer from attention lapses, focus issues, content processing errors)... literally anything you can 'throw' at me is probably at some point applicable but it doesn't bother me... and yes it's a much nicer way to go through live than nitpicking and getting upset about something somebody said and wondering whether I actually 'got' what the person meant, misinterpreted it or read something into it that wasn't there...

That is great.

But do you really think that because you are not offended that makes it ok to call all German people Nazis? Or for German children(not including yours) to have Hitler gibes and towel jokes made to them, because they are German? Or for a black person to have 'nigger' shouted at them? Or for a child or adult with limited understanding and learning disabilities to be called 'retard'?

It is not being 'pc' or 'oversensitive' to not want your vulnerable child to be subjected to words like 'mong' or 'retard'.

"Loon, when used as a deogatory term, is a short form for lunatic. As an adjective, it is 'loony'. To test this theory, I asked my son (14) what a loon was. He said "a black and white bird like a duck". I then asked "if someone says you are a loon, what are they saying?" His response - "they are saying I am bat-crap bonkers"

Of course loon means bonkers, but so does bonkers mean bonkers iyswim - Does that mean bonkers is offensive? And certainly when i grew up in the US (we also have loons you know), calling someone a loon had very different connotations to calling them say a retard or lunatic.

I am also somewhat amused by this view in which cunt is not offensive whereas say loon is, I know that in the and the UK and US (and even Canada I'd bet), calling someone s cunt would be extremely offensive, a loon less so.

But if loon is unacceptable now, what is acceptable? It's very unreasonable to be offended by every single word in the English language, regardless of context used, that implies being a few cards short of a full house.

Surely, the offense is in the intent and the context. I'd rather be called a loon than selfish any day of the week. I think I'd rather be called a cunt too. Because anyone calling me cunt would be totally unreasonable and likely not someone I respect. Someone reasonable, and who I respected, calling me selfish would be very hurtful.

what hazeyjane said.

MrsBigD
But that s our prerogative and affects the debate not one jot.
If one random bloke in one random situation says 'hey,I don't mind people calling me Paki' do we just shrug then and say its ok?
Should playground kids getting that shouted at them have I suck it up because mrsBigD thinks if she can handle it then everyone else should ?
Or would that be ridiculous and astonishingly self absorbed?

I think mrsBigD is displaying breathtaking arrogance and privilege. why should my Child have to suck it up? why should he put up with the offensive? why protect the rights of the offensive over that of a hurt child? can't we be a gentle society?

I was not referring to the "offensive nature" of the word loon - I was merely pointing out that no one thinks of the bird when being called a loon.

I know loons exist in the US - heck, any American will jump up and say anything that exists in Canada also exists in the US (y'know, there are bald eagles here - they are scavengers and found in large numbers near landfills... same as in the US). I was referring to Canada as the "land of the loon" because it is on our currency - our one dollar coin is the "loonie".

MrsBigD has learnt to cope, and she is teaching her children to cope too.
Very admirable I think, rather than showing arrogance.

The trouble is, MrsD, that others have not be taught to cope in such a way. or are just not able to cope in such a way.
And also of, course, at the end of the day, other people should not be allowed to do and behave in an insulting manner. Else they just ramp it up further to what they can get away with imo.

I see what you are trying to say Ilikethebreeze but she doesn't say 'I have learnt to cope' does she.
She says she has a sense of humour and doesn't go through life nitpicking. Which absoloutely is 'I am fine and those who are not are humourless nit pickers'. That's fairly arrogant in my book.

I have always taught my children that anyone who would sneer at their brother is a worthless piece of shit.
But try dealing with it everytime you leave the house. Try dealing with it when it is your much loved child being laughed at or shouted at.

To say 'I cope with people taking the piss out of my being German so everyone else should get over it' is crass.
Being German is not something that every single person will know and judge you for as you stand in a queue in the supermarket.
It's quite dense a comparison tbh.

She doesnt actually say that she has learnt to cope, but she has hasnt she?
Her humour about it is a coping mechanism
The doesnt nit pick could either be a coping mechanism, or her inherrent character.
Have actually realised from her post that Germans have it difficult in some ways because of their heritage.

If a person sneers at another, that does not make them "a worthless piece of shit", it means that their behaviour is not good at that time, and probably some other times too.
No ones behaviour is perfect all of the time is it? So to call a person "worthless" is harsh imo.

I dare say we wont agree on these posts, but we can agree to differ cant we.

actually, if someone sneers at a disabled child or calls them an offensive name then in my book they are a worthless peice of shit. What adult calls a small child in a wheelchair or with Down's syndrome an offensive name?
Only a piece of shit.
I shouldnt have to put up with it every single fucking time I push my child out of the door. Nor should my child.