re Offensive terminology

[DoJo]

I will confess from the off that this is kind of a thread about a thread, but really didn't want to de-rail/feed the troll depending on how you view it. However, it was mentioned a few times that 'moron' was an offensive term, and as I had never come across someone offended by it, I turn to the mighty google to research its origins. Whilst it turns out that the term was coined by Henry H Goddard to (and I'm quoting directly from wikipedia here)
"denote mild mental retardation" and "to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale".

'Fair enough' I think to myself, glad I know this as I wouldn't want to use a term which anyone would find offensive. However, the article goes on to describe the other terms used by Goddard on the same scale which include 'idiot' 'imbecile' and 'stupid'. Now, I am pretty sure that I have never seen anyone lambasted for using any of those terms on here, and also reasonably convinced that their move into everyday terminology has softened their impact significantly. So why is moron still considered (by some at least) more offensive than those other terms?

Disclaimer - genuinely not trying to start a bun fight. I just find the origins of words interesting and would be interested to know why some provoke a stronger reaction than others.

'because the word spaz isn't universally used as a term in itself'

I meant to put that they must know its original meaning and what it's based on, whereas you could be forgiven for not linking bastard to it's origin of a religiously sinful behaviour.

And many people will have no idea of the original meaning of the word 'moron', Waffly

Therefore since moron has evolved to mean an idiotic non thinking person...why are people taking more offence to that because of it's original meaning than they are for the word bastard?

I should add that none of these words offend me

But if I knew someone was offended by me using them, I wouldn't use them in their company.

Oh, sure you could. I think the origin of bastard is fairly heavily submerged by now.

It is possible that there's a socially-conditioned pattern to the way we cling to some insulting terms and not others that'd say something about our prejudices, but it's not deliberate at an individual level, I don't think.

But then, some people honestly wouldn't know the origin of 'spaz'. You can usually tell from someone's reaction if they're genuinely shocked to find out they'd inadvertently used a word without knowing the origins were a bit off.

That's true actually

My DS said his phone kept 'spazzing out' a couple of years ago and he was mortified when I told him what it actually meant.

To him it was just an expression he kept hearing/reading and he took it to mean having a 'hissy fit'.

He had no idea of its real meaning until I explained.

I think it's one of those words that is probably becoming so divorced from its original meaning, lots of people will grow up not knowing what it means.

I had no clue, for ages, what twat meant. Not that that is terribly offensive at all, but I thought it was just an Midlands version of twit.

What if you say 'That was a pretty moronic/imbecilic/cretinous thing to do'?

Loads of people won't know the original meaning of spaz. It's short for spastic.

I don't think I use any of these words apart from bastard, stupid and idiot but to me when someone says 'don't be an imbecile' it is like saying 'don't be childish'. Children are children and so act like children. But when we say an adult is childish we are saying their behaviour is inappropriate for their age and maturity. So if someone uses imbecile the implication is that they are not an imbecile so their behaviour is inappropriate.

It's short for spastic was meant to have a question mark not a full stop!

Unlike Worra's son I'm certain these colleagues are aware of what "spaz" means, unfortunately. And yes, Agent they have behaved like wankers. One's not actually employed by our company: the other is, and my role at work means that now I've seen it I'm going to have to talk to him about it on Monday.

We know it's short for spastic but spastic is a word that's no longer used by the medical profession/on forms etc...

Therefore the younger generation probably don't associate the word 'spaz' with spastic.

It's the same with 'moron'...it's no longer an officially used word and therefore not many people will associate it with the real meaning.

Which brings me back to 'bastard'. At one time that word was also used by official professional people but those days are long gone.

That's why it interests me to know how/why some terms are seemed acceptable to use as an insult and some aren't.

I don't buy that, waffly. Children grow out of being children. People with disabilities, on the whole, don't.

*deemed

What has that to do with it? Behaving like an 'imbecile' (not an official term any more) is appropriate for an imbecile but not appropriate for others.

And why do 'cretins' need to be protected but not 'morons'?

As I've said if people are going to deem one word offensive and another similar word fine then can they explain why?

If they can't explain why, why should anyone give a flying fuck if someone says they are offended?

I'm sorry, I have no clue what you're on about.

Most people give a flying fuck about offending people because they're not fundamentally nasty. It's fairly simple.

'how/why some terms are seemed acceptable to use as an insult and some aren't.'

Is it that 'illigitimate' children don't make up a vulnerable group any more (because the barb's been taken out of the jibe), whereas people who have disabilities or SNs are still struggling to get their point across that they're people too and not some sub-species.

That they still feel sidelined and shat upon by those who can - and rightly so IMO - and trying to foster a new positive image of the crap they have to go through involves making people aware of the way they've been dumped on in the past and making it plain they're not putting up with it any more.

oh well, guess no one will ever give a satisfactory explanation as to why one word is acceptable but another similar word is just dandy.

I think that's part of it, agent.

And I think it's also particularly unpleasant to use a term that is stigmatizing someone who may not be equipped to understand that. I don't know how to explain why I think that very eloquently, but it just strikes me as nasty. Like a way of taking advantage, I suppose.

x post.

can you expand on that a bit more, Agent?

Another term for 'bastard' was 'whoreson'...it was even used by Shakespeare.

Can you just imagine anyone telling an OP on Mumsnet to "Leave the whoreson"?

I bet that'd put a different slant on the phrase and make it unacceptable....even though it meant the exact same thing as bastard back in the day

'That they still feel sidelined and shat upon by those who can - and rightly so IMO'

I meant they're right to feel sidelined and shat on because they are by those in power, rather than it's right to sideline and shit on them!

Which bit would you like me to expand on Waffles?

I think you can sum it up neatly as an inequality in power.

So many insults are about women having sex!!!! OMG!!!

No insults whatsoever about men having sex. Wankers though, men not getting sex is when they are insulted.

I recently learnt that 'manuka' is just about the worst insult you can give in (some?) Arabic.

apparently it means something like 'your mum is having loads of sex and likes it'

Sounds ok to me.

Whoreson is stronger, isn't it? You can be a bastard (literally) without your mother being (literally) a whore.

But yes.

Good save Agent - especially in the context of this thread. I'd like to think everyone would know what you meant, but it pays to be safe!

Not back in the day you couldn't apparently LRD

Anyway I need to get to bed but it's been such an interesting conversation.

I think I'll sum it up by saying that for me personally, I find it best to adjust my language to the people around me at the time. If I know for a fact someone is offended or takes a very 'old school' meaning to what I'm saying...I'll adjust (within reason) how I say things.

But of course it's easier in chosen/private company. On MN it's totally impossible what with this being a huge website...read by people of all different ages and cultures.

Night all x

I'll have to come back to this tomorrow. Bed beckons.

I expect 30 pages by midday.