to think that mark Bridger deserves to have his "parts" removed?

[whatever2]

while he's awake hopefully?

Oh well I don't feel sad - when I focus on all the blessings I've been given in my life which I've done nothing special to deserve it helps me to stop being discontented

And how do you feel when you think about all the "blessings" that have been denied to billions of other people, all of whom are just as undeserving of their fate as you?

And just for you, despite the fact I am an apostate, I do at least understand where you are coming from! My engagement with you is as relevant as any other on this thread, because it is through debating these issues we can come to a mutual understanding...

something I cannot imagine with the cut his bits of nonsense.

oh hop, I am so with you on that. but I so don't think its okay to berate an individual for it. Shall we just chat and see where we have a common ground? I mean, I do think it nonsense. but I have sound reasons for thinking it.

I'm sure that tuppence does not personally want to take responsibility for the catholic missionaries who have destroyed the WHO goal in Africa re contraception. we don't even know what kind of christianity she espouses.

I personally, kind of like quakers.

If i had to choose.

kumbaya any one?

Yeah, MadameDefarge, I can see maybe it is splitting hairs and maybe it wasn't helpful - I honestly didn't mean to introduce a total red-herring and derail the discussion although I can see I did!

By way of an explanation, I would have felt like I was being dishonest if framed my entire argument in secular-humanistic terms - which I could have done really easily, as I held pretty much the same views on the death-penalty, crime and punishment etc before I was converted, so broadly-speaking my points would have been the same. However I felt that if I'd done that I would have been misrepresenting myself in order to "fit in" with others.

As I said, maybe I was being a bit pedantic as I do understand that in our imperfect world we need to have a concept of human rights. But I do believe that it's a humanistic - although necessary - concept, not a spiritual one.

There are a lot of things I would like engage with in your post but not sure if this thread is the place for it - I've already said enough for somebody who said up-thread that they couldn't see the purpose of it!

I'd better sign off now and I probably won't be back as I have work tomorrow and am away until Monday - by which time this thread will probably have sunk without trace.

So sorry if I derailed the thread and sorry if I offended anyone - I am quite firm in my beliefs but I feel like I've used a thread about an awful tragedy as a platform for them and I didn't really mean to do that. I should also point out that I do not speak for all Christians - I am fully persuaded by my own denomination's teaching but many Christians will not agree!

Oh gosh MadameDefarge, millions of x-posts! I am so slow at posting, I told you I was pedantic. BTW thanks for debating with me in such a respectful tone. I do get that people think I'm a loon, and strangely, I'm OK with that; after all, the Bible doesn't promise me that I'm going to be best friends with everybody. But I still appreciate it when somebody is pleasant.

hopkinette that's a fair question, if I may, I will answer with a couple of points of my own.

Firstly, when I talk of being blessed in my life, that doesn't mean that I lead this perfect life with no worries. Nowhere in the Bible are we promised that. By blessings, I mean things like; I have a roof over my head; I have a job; I have food etc. I myself am very prone to being discontented and complaining, and I often forget how fortunate I am. Remembering to thank God for these blessings (if only I would remember to do it more often) helps me to be more contented in my life and not to envy others which I know from experience is a really destructive emotion. It also makes me better equipped to help others.

Secondly - how do I feel about all the "blessings" that have been denied to billions of people who are just as "undeserving" of their fate as me? Well how do you feel about the billions of people who are less fortunate than you? Pretty similarly to me, I would imagine. Personally speaking, by nature I am quite selfish and have a tendency to get caught up in my own troubles and forget other people - but that isn't good enough. I can't solve all of the world's problems, but I have to do what I can. In terms of time and money I don't give what I could - like I said, I'm kind of selfish - but doing nothing is not an option.

If I've totally misunderstood your question there (which is very possible - I may be insomniac but I am still tired!) and you meant why would a just God allow this world to be so unjust and unfair - well I believe that this is a fallen and imperfect world and God has given us free will. As humans are ultimately selfish, this world is an unjust place, and too often it's the most innocent people that suffer. However, God is not the author of this injustice; people are. Christians are called upon to stand against injustice and reach out their hand to the poor.

Definitely going to bed now.

Oh, FGS, OP (and others)!
What if it was your son who committed the crime?

We are better (well, some of us) than these criminals and that's why they are treated like human beings regardless of what they have done. Just put away to protect society from them.

I can't even bear to think about the man, let alone ghoulishly dwell on whether his genitals should be cut off personally.

The problem is that whatever you do to this man it will not bring April back which is what everyone really wants. Even if we had the death penalty he has already lived half his life and hers was taken away at the age of 5. He is probably a psychopath and will never even suffer from feelings of remorse for his actions. Best I think to accept that we cannot punish him in proportion to the way he hurt April and her family and it would achieve nothing even if we could.

I think the best that can happen is that he stays in jail for the rest of his life, irritatingly costing us all lots of money, so that he can't hurt anyone else. I don't know how he can be made to reveal what he did to her body. As it is the last card he has left to play I fear that attempts to make him do so will just lead to lies, manipulation and game playing on his part which he may even find quite enjoyable.

Chemically castrating a paedophile seems perfectly reasonable to me. In how many instances does life actually mean life? Paedophiles who abuse but don?t kill leave scars on their victims, I am certainly not one for saying an eye for an eye but surely by removing a persons desire you would lower the risk of reoffending and save more children from these vile predators. I really don?t give a frig if AIBU by saying remove his bollocks, in my heart I?d rather they remove is head.

There's an interesting article from Jsnuary's Guardian about chemical castration.

MAY NOT BE SUITABLE READING FOR ALL...it contains accounts of sex offences.

m.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/18/chemical-castration-soft-option-sex-offenders

However, I'm not advocating that Bridger be medicated and sent back out into society.

It's a very vexed ethical dilemma.

Ian Brady apparently wants to die. So if we executed him we'd be giving him what he wants.

So let's keep Brady alive, but as his view is unusual, we could probably safely kill lots of others and save money into the bargain.

Plus, there's a theory that lethal injection is an extremely painful way to die, but because the prisoner is anaesthetised, the people watching don't have to see him suffer.

That's good, unless you want to see people suffer, in which case you'd be better off plumping for another method of torture and death. There are lots.

And what do you do if the parents of murdered children spend a night alone with the murderer and come out in the morning having left him alone, or not hurt him enough?

Do we send them back in and make them fight like it's ancient Rome?

I mean paralysed, not anaesthetised.

Interesting minou. Thanks

I didn't know that about lethal injection, limited.
I always found the idea horrifying....unable to move and fully conscious, but had no idea it might have been painful.
Imprisonment probably is the only answer.

I've often wondered how the investigating officers in this case could remain calm when that absolute bastard continued to say he didn't know what he did with April's body.

I go back and forth with the issue but guess that I ultimately believe there's no place for torture in a civilised society but my God it's tested when I think of that man.

Rest in peace April Jones (that's made me cry, the poor, poor little mite)

Reading around more, it seems the death penalty in the US at least, is more expensive to secure than life imprisonment.

I feel a lot like you vulva

At first I agreed with the op and wondered how others could disagree, but I've given their points some thought and agree that I wouldn't want to live in the type of society where we torture people.

However, this man should never ever walk free again. And I'm sure that he'll get the befitting treatment in prison.

Apologies in advance for going a bit Daily Mail on everyone and raving about "my taxes...my taxes are paying for this !" but out of interest does anyone know how much it costs to keep people like this in prison ?

Suppose a Google search is in order...

If there is no shadow of a doubt of his guilt then he should be dead. Won't bring her back or change anything, but he does not deserve to be alive.

Justin ...in the US it's more expensive to push a case through to the death penalty. Decades of appeals, even if there's no doubt about guilt.

Thanks for that minou....Found a Ministry of Justice document and skimmed through it. Looks like it can cost anywhere between £30k-£40k per annum to keep a prisoner (obviously the more high risk or needing any kind of special treatment or protection will cost more).

Meanwhile, elsewhere on MN we have someone moaning about a single mother getting £100 in her benefits to decorate her run down flat. Oh the irony.....

So many evil killers in the past few years have chosen death rather than life imprisonment,proper life, meaning they would never be released.
There was Fred West, Harold Shipman, The Dunblane killer,(actually all that have been involved in mass shootings), and Ian Brady who wants the right to die.
I truly believe a life behind bars is the harder option.

There was no shadow of doubt regarding the Birmingham six, or the Guildford bombers. There have been many cases of miscarriage of justice, and according to the Justice department, the cases currently under discussion stand at some 15,000.
Sam Hallam
Guardian list

minou I think medical staff are prevented from taking part in execution because of ethics. Or if they're not, many of them choose not to.

So the injection is given by enthusiastic amateurs who sometimes muck it up, and the prisoner dies of slow suffocation.

There was a murderer a while ago, forget his name, who opted for a firing squad because that's quick and relatively painless. I can't remember what state he was in but after him, they took away that option.

I read your link. Interesting. It might be worse to have to live with these urges and be unable to do anything about them, than to have them taken away with a pill and be free to think about kittens all day.

It's really difficult to know what to do for the best with these people

I know, Justin, but that single mum schlepping around Homebase with her £100 isn't likely to do anyone any harm. We don't just keep the buggers in jail to punish them, but to protect the rest of us.

Right, Limited. I had a quick look and was reading about potassium burns etc. it seems that if you are to be executed, then firing squad or skilful beheading is the way to go, but we deem these methods barbaric.