Accepting a caution while training to be a nurse

[burntoutteacher]

This is a really brief synopsis, hope you guys can help.

My friend is training to be a nurse. Her mentally abusive ex has been harassing her via the authorities since they split. In 18 months he has taken her to court for access (but doesn't show up ), and reported her to SS and she had to be interviewed twice. He won't work officially but does have jobs on the quiet, doesn't pay towards the children either.

Foolishly, she approached him at his place of work 6 months ago and argued with him over money. He started pushing her out of the shop and she lashed out and hit him across the chest. He called the police and wants her prosecuted. She has begged him not to, given the effect it will have on her career and the children, but he just laughed.

Police want to caution her instead but my understanding is that it will remain on her file for 100 years and will be just as damaging for her career. She has to sign the caution tomorrow and is devastated.

Is there anything at all she can do? Police have apparently tried to reason with him but he said he feels victimised ( don't get me started on that) and so she is to be cautioned.

She feels the career she tried so hard for is about to be shattered and he will then find new ways of beating her down. Please help:/

Hi burntout, I have come late to this but read with interest as I work in criminal justice and have a close relative who works for the NHS and recently was convicted of assault. In her case she was entirely at fault, and admitted guilt at a much later stage than your friend. However she has been allowed to return to her job. She kept her employers informed all the way through, and made sure the knew about her remorse - for example gave them a copy of the letter she wrote for the court. She also had very good support from her union. Clearly she was lucky and it could have gone either way, but in her case she did get to keep her career.

I have worked advising people on employment with convictions and often interview people with a record for work. For me, the further in the past the conviction was, declaring it up front and discussing it honestly, and showing responsibility and remorse are key. In the context of the NHS or any other enhanced DBS profession, the distinction between a caution and conviction is unimportant.

I would never agree that this incident means your friend should not be a nurse. I believe in rehabilitation and that people can learn from and change their behaviour, and it would be sad not to have this faith. Clearly to everyone will change, but your friend deserves the chance. I wish her well, let us know how it goes.

we interview new nurses very frequently - we have 'approved' some at interview stage but they very rarely go on then to be accepted through a hearing panel.

Some Trusts are just not prepared not to take the risk- especially after the Francis Inquiry - we are all tripping over each other trying to fine the 'best' nurses. Someone with a conviction/caution for assault is probably not going to be considered- regardless of provocation.

She is under the impression that a conviction will render her unemployable but a caution gives her some hope.

WRONG a caution IS a conviction to all intents and purposes, it is an admission of guilt, the only difference is that you have not gone to court, you have still pleaded guilty.

It will impact on her career either way, but it is difficult to say how much. I teach in FE and we have had students on courses for which they need a CRB. Assault on one case was a teenager arguing with mum that spread out in to the street.

An awful lot of teenagers seem to have been told that cautions are wiped when they are 18, and that is not the case.

But that is beside the point.

If she refuses the caution and they want to proceed they will have to arrest her and send the case to the CPS. But that also means she gets a free solicitor and she should insist on one before interview.

In my experience the police like cautions because it gives them results.

I was arrested once. I was accused of using a particular computer to send an email.

At the time I was on one continent, the computer was on a second and the person complaining was on a third. The person complaining about me had also complained to my employer and demand I was sacked. She also claimed she could complete a phd in 6 months and was on some board at the united nations amongst other things.

Before I was interviewed I was told that if I accepted a caution I could go home and take my property with me.

They were not interested in the truth. The fact my passport proved I was out of the country and the IP address clearly on the email meant
nothing. In fact I was asked 'what's an IP address?'.

God this is depressing but honest and helpful reading and I thank you all for that.

She has called her sol this morn and asked him to ask her ex one last time to reconsider. I am pretty sure though That she will get the middle finger from him.

Sash, thanks

The police are indeed keen to proceed. They have been really sympathetic to her but after her sister got involved they said she has no chance now.

Do you ever feel like someone won't stop until they have taken everything from you?

What a horrible situation for your friend. This thread has made me feel so sad.

Why did her sister get involved BurntOut? Did she ask her to?

Just to clarify a few points.

If she has been offered a caution and has a solicitor, she will already have been arrested, received legal advice, been interviewed and bailed.

She won't be paying privately as ALL police station advice is free. It is possible that she has paid for an extra appointment with the solicitor to go throug her options, but in terms of the solicitor being willing to 'fight' the case, it makes no odds.

Solicitors will generally advise someone to accept a caution where they admit the offence, in order to avoid going to court because the stakes are lower and a caution is spent after 5 years as opposed to 7 for a conviction. If someone desperately needs to avoid anything on their record, they might be advised that they can take the risk of going to court, on the understanding that they have very little chance of their gamble paying off.

Agood solicitor won't necessarily be able to get the case dropped. It will depend on the view taken by the individual prosecutor as to whether it is in the public interest to proceed. Some prosecutors are more bullish than others. Some are more reasonable than others. But I wouldn't expect any prosecutor to be in a hurry to drop a case involving DV, an admission in interview and CCTV.

The background between the two of them will have very little airing at a trial because most of it will be 'bad character'. Some may get into evidence simply because it's an intrinsic part of the case, but most would have to be the subject of an application. This almost certainly would fail because it doesn't go to the heart of theissue. If she was saying he was lying about her assaulting him, it might get in to demonstrate a history of false allegations etc. if she was asserting self defence, it might get in to demonstrate a history of physical aggression. But she doesn't actually have a defence in law, by the sound of things, and won't be allowed to bring in a whole lot of background in attempt to sway a bench against him.

It can be used in mitigation at sentence.

If she offers him money she could be arrested for perverting the course of justice, which is extremely serious.

To summarise, she can take a punt on going to court and having the case dropped, but I wouldn't fancy her chances. If she goes to trial on the basis of what has been said here, she will almost certainly be convicted, because she effectively admits the offence, and there is no defence of provocation in common assault.

Great sympathy for her, but she's walked right into his trap

Just noticed something - her solicitor can't approach her ex to drop the cae! That would be indirect contact, presumably contrary to her bail conditions. The most her solicitor can do is ask the police to check again if he wants to proceed.

Has she called the uni yet?

That's really her only way forward. She needs to find out if a caution will allow her to continue training, or if both will mean she cannot continue.

If one does allow her to continue, than that's what she needs to go for. If neither does, she'll need to decide if she wants to fight this anyway, having already admitted it, or not.

I'd be very careful wasting time getting her solicitor to approach the police to approach her ex. It could take some time before the answer gets back to her, and it doesn't sound like he will have changed his mind. There is no incentive for him too (and it's illegal for you to offer him one!)

Would this go against her regarding the child contact case also

Ok update

NMC have said a caution and conviction are the same and both will affect her ability to register, but that they can take refs etc and supporting docs into account and will listen to her side of the story at the time. (It's 2 years away)

Also, the union has refused to help her because it happened back in August and she didn't join union until sept!

Can't believe it happened that far back either. Time flies. Can they actually convict her after this time?

Could she threated to shop him to DWP for benefit fraud unless he drops the caution?

Thanks all.

Her sis text him off her own back. My friend is furious.

Don't think it'll affect contact. He doesn't want overnights and told the judge that straight up. Judge was furious at this and told him off.

Her sol is in process of asking him again to drop it. He has also called CPS and asked for more time. Worth a shot but I hope it doesn't jeopardise the case?

Also, my friend has employed solicitor as her ex has got one?

"Except as otherwise expressly provided by any enactment and subject to subsection (2) below, a magistrates? court shall not try an information or hear a complaint unless the information was laid, or the complaint made, within 6 months from the time when the offence was committed, or the matter of complaint arose."

From the Magistrates' Court Act 1980 s 127(1).

Did he complain straight away? Or at least within 6 months?

Now all she needs to do is check with the university. If they hold the same view as the NMC, than she may as well accept the caution, and not risk a fine or community service.

God RCN have just bollocked her on the phone and said she shouldn't even be on placement. This is dreadful :(

He did complain at the time, the police have held off and tried to get him to drop it in that all that bloody time and he won't shift

I thought it would be helpful for you to have the exact words from the NMC on cautions.

"Declaring police charges, cautions and convictions
Satisfying our requirements about good character

Whenever you apply for or renew your registration, you must satisfy the Registrar of your good health and good character. This means:

• you must inform us if you have a police charge, caution or conviction.
• the Registrar will decide if an offence will affect your registration
• we review police charges, cautions and convictions to look for patterns of offences.

Having a police charge, caution or conviction is a serious matter. However, a positive reference from your line manager could help your application. The reference which must be signed on headed paper, must show your line manager is aware of the offence(s) you have committed, give an opinion on your fitness to practise. The Registrar will also consider your own account of the circumstances that led to the offence. Your application may be considered by the Registrar's Advisory Group.

The Registrar will then make a formal decision, taking the group?s advice into account. If the Registrar does not feel satisfied as to good health and good character, he may refuse the application outright or invite you to support your application with additional information.

To speak to someone about your police charges, cautions and convictions, please call: 020 7681 5463."

My view is she needs to accept the caution, because the evidence is stacked against her. She then has a choice. She could:

1. try to persuade the uni and managers to support her application to register, and then try to persuade an employer to take her on (NB, it need not just be the NHS, there are other employers of nurses, and some of them may be less cautious in this regard).
2. seek a different type of career that does not require professional registration. There will still be an employment hurdle. There may be alternative careers in health that could be viable, e.g., health manager.

He's unlikely too now, then, but if complained immediately it'll comply with the law.

It sucks for your friend, it must be absolutely gutting, but she needs to know where she stands now.

Has she spoken to her university? It may well be the case that she needs to stop placement and have a meeting with them, but today, she just needs to know if they will treat a caution the same as a conviction (and if she can continue with a caution).

Then we'll work out where to go.

Thanks guys, she is calling them now. She has been to see them before and while they told her she would have to go before a 'fitness to practice board' they were kind to her and said they would try to help her.

Shilly thansks, I've emailed that to her....sounds positive doesn't it? That they would let her register with support from tutors etc. she is on track for a first class degree:/

I think it's not wholly negative, but I would be very clear that there is a tough road ahead. She will need to persuade the university first. Then she will need to persuade the NMC. Persuading them might mean taking very active steps, e.g., being able to tell the panel she's already signed up for an anger management course, has sought to initiate mediation with her ex, has developed a set of ground rules to manage the situation etc.

Even once she's registered, she's got to persuade an employer to take the risk. She'll need to think about what she can do to make it easier for them. A first will help, for sure. Strong endorsements from placements also. Plus the same sort of mitigations as described above.

I hope she has the time later to think about how she comes out of this stronger and better protected against provocations. And that someone is on hand for her daughter, who at 15 presumably is very aware of what's going on and pretty upset by it.

I'm really confused about what is going on with the criminal investigation. I'm not convinced that your friend has got everything right at all.

The police won't have spent the last 9 months trying to get someone to drop a case. They just won't. I don't know how it could have taken that long, but there is quite clearly something she isn't understanding about this.

When you say that she has a solicitor because her ex has one, do you mean for the family proceedings? Because e ex won't be represented in the criminal proceedings, and the two solicitors won't be speaking to each other to try to resolve this. The only person who should be approaching the ex is the officer dealing with the case. I can pretty much guarantee that her criminal solicitor is not having any direct conversation with the complainant, as it would be entirely unethical and could quite possibly land the solicitor in a lot of trouble.

If this has been dragging on for months, why is there a sudden rush over the caution? Cautions are offered and accepted or refused pretty much immediately after interview. They don't take months.

This all sounds very strange and I think your friend needs to make sure that she actually understands everyone's role, and the procedure.

Listen to kungfupannda - she knows what she's talking about.

Ok, this happened in August. The police told her they were going to put the caution on hold and speak to the PPS. They told her to write a letter to them and wait to hear back. She did.
I didn't mean to suggest the police have been working tirelessly to get him to drop it since that time.

She has indeed been using a sol in the family court proceedings but she has now switched to a criminal one from the same firm who absolutely has been speaking to the police on her behalf and only this morn said he would ask them for more time. I don't know why it's so unbelievable that she would instruct a solicitor to help her- I would in this situation!