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Original poster

Accepting a caution while training to be a nurse

369 replies

burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 21:42

This is a really brief synopsis, hope you guys can help.

My friend is training to be a nurse. Her mentally abusive ex has been harassing her via the authorities since they split. In 18 months he has taken her to court for access (Confusedbut doesn't show up ), and reported her to SS and she had to be interviewed twice. He won't work officially but does have jobs on the quiet, doesn't pay towards the children either.

Foolishly, she approached him at his place of work 6 months ago and argued with him over money. He started pushing her out of the shop and she lashed out and hit him across the chest. He called the police and wants her prosecuted. She has begged him not to, given the effect it will have on her career and the children, but he just laughed.

Police want to caution her instead but my understanding is that it will remain on her file for 100 years and will be just as damaging for her career. She has to sign the caution tomorrow and is devastated.

Is there anything at all she can do? Police have apparently tried to reason with him but he said he feels victimised ( don't get me started on that) and so she is to be cautioned.

She feels the career she tried so hard for is about to be shattered and he will then find new ways of beating her down. Please help:/

OP posts:
Heebiejeebie · 15/05/2013 06:08

The wad pod cash waving was to their daughter, not to the nurse.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 07:12

Hi all

Thanks again for the replies. She is a at a loss as she needs to make a decision before 3pm. She is under the impression that a conviction will render her unemployable but a caution gives her some hope. To answer some questions:

There is no more CCTV footage
The police have warned her not to contact him ( her sister did, they ended up having a spat via text over it and now he will use that as evidence as well....he told the police he felt intimidated)
She is a member of both unison and RCN and is ringing them this morn
Her solicitor said she will be convicted

OP posts:
LetMeAtTheWine · 15/05/2013 07:34

What an awful situation for your friend Hmm I hope she manages to get some good advice from alternative sources today.
Has her solicitor been able to advise what the likely punishment would be if she was convicted?
Why on earth did her sister contact him?!

Jinty64 · 15/05/2013 07:35

Madamecastafiore whilst I agree that if these circumstances were explained at interview it may not be a reason not to employ, realistically with the huge number of applicants for each post, why take someone with a criminal record.

The last band 5 post we advertised had 36 applicants. Half of these would have been suitable. Many had experience (some vast). We didn't need to take a chance on someone with a history of assault. I think it would be very difficult to get a foot in the door.

CabbageLeaves · 15/05/2013 07:37

I'm NHS. I would not employ anyone with a caution for assault. I would not give any consideration to the circumstances tbh because anyone in the same boat (male or female) would make the same claim. Whilst I think Compos is being unnecessarily confrontational and unsympathetic on the thread I do think he/she has a point about the cold, hard, black and white facts. She assaulted. She admitted. She was recorded on CCTV.

Having said all of that, I feel very very sorry for your friend. She is obviously stressed and made an error of judgement in the heat of the moment and under huge provocation.

I along with many would advise her to refuse to accept the caution.

Ginny57 · 15/05/2013 07:38

I'm a magistrate. Sorry to say I concur with those who say she will be convicted. Although the magistrates may be sympathetic to the back story and that would influence their sentencing decision (eg perhaps a fine rather than community service) this would be listed as a domestic violence case and would be treated seriously.

The simple facts are that she did assault him in front of witnesses and on CCTV therefore, whether the magistrates like it or not, they will have to find her guilty and she will receive a criminal conviction.

I'm afraid a caution with preparation to give a full explanation of the circumstances to any employer might be the way forward.
BTW to be clear, I have no legal training, she must be advised by a solicitor but just to say that IMO if her case came to court with the evidence you have presented she would be found guilty.

kungfupannda · 15/05/2013 07:41

I'm a criminal lawyer. Generally I would try to get a caution for a client where the evidence is strong, rather than risk a conviction.

However, where the impact on the client is greater than for most people, ie someone working in a CRB checked profession, I would probably advise them that it was open to them to refuse the caution and go to court, in the hope that the CPS could be persuaded to drop it, or that she might get a sympathetic bench.

The problem is that, to be offered a caution, she must have admitted the offenc, to some extent or another, and that makes it much easier for a lazy prosecutor to proceed and get a conviction.

It doesn't sound good, to be honest. She approached him. She pushed first. She was the only one to hit, not push. I think she might be in difficulties. And the sister needs to back off - it could be said to be indirect contact in breach of bail conditions.

SofiaAmes · 15/05/2013 07:48

If her ex is working illegally for cash, will he be willing to go to court and testify as that could get him in a whole load of trouble re taxes and child support. If the caution is sure to create problems with her career, then it seems to me that she should take the chance that it won't get prosecuted because prosecution won't want to pursue it or ex won't want to testify.

SofiaAmes · 15/05/2013 07:49

But can I add, going back to the original story...why on earth was she sending her dd to collect money from her ex. Really inappropriate, I think. She should be rethinking a lot of how she carries on.

CelticPromise · 15/05/2013 08:26

I'm a criminal lawyer too. What kungfu said. I would make representations to the CPS in the hope they could be persuaded to drop it. But it doesn't look good.

Incidentally why isn't she ' on legal aid'? Everyone is entitled to free advice at the police station stage.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 08:33

Thanks all, god I'm feeling really stressed on her behalf. She fought off hundreds of other applicants for a place on this course, and as she had cancer herself a few years ago, wants to specialise in palliative care....she is not a violent person. Believe me when I say he is a lowlife.

In terms of his working hours, he is legally allowed to work 8 hours or something like than in terms of his dole....but he is there EVERY day of the week and his employer is implicit in helping him lie about this . So he works full time and claims a wrath of benefits. ( also claims to be a Carer for his mum!)

She sent her 15yo up to her dad for her pocket money....dad said he would send uniform money back with 15yo at same time...he didn't. She didn't actually send her for the money ifyswim. He used the opportunity to bait her....and she took it.

For those who say she deserves it....this tosser is a lowlife, she is receiving support from WA for mental abuse, has two kids to feed who he won't pay for, he drives a Mercedes, reports her to SS and is hell bent on destroying her. Please don't tell me she is a risk to the public, or that she deserves this. She bloody does not.

OP posts:
Llareggub · 15/05/2013 08:41

I've employed nurses and others in DBS professions. It would be contrary to the Code of Practice for employers using DBS checks to automatically preclude her from employment on the basis of a caution or a conviction. We take each case on its merits and personally would be very sympathetic to the mitigating circumstances. A lot would depend on how honest and open she is during the application process.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 08:46

That sounds promising, thanks Grin

Ok I'm throw this out there. Would it be mad to offer him 'compensation'?

He is a shit person, part of me thinks he would take it as he's on his arse financially. She is convinced however that he wants her ruined and would t take it.
Could she go through the proper channels to ask? Say through his solicitors?x

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 08:49

God although the advice on here is fab and I really appreciate it- it is still so hard knowing what to do.
Some are saying don't accept it, but lawyers and mags are saying she would be convicted, what a nightmare!Confused

OP posts:
badgeroncaffeine · 15/05/2013 08:52

As I've said, I'm 99% sure a good lawyer would get this discontinued.

EffieTheDuck · 15/05/2013 08:53

I know nothing about law but given this mans history towards your friend, it sounds like she acted in self defence when he began pushing her.
Sorry I have nothing to add but it is an instinct to raise your arms to protect yourself if you think you will be hit.

CajaDeLaMemoria · 15/05/2013 08:54

If she has until 3pm to accept the caution or be arrested, it may well be too late to offer him anything.

There is definitely enough evidence to convict, and the public interest stage is debatable. Where I am, all domestic violence incidences are being prosexuted at the moment, and anyone who works with children of vulnerable people would also be prosecuted for assault. So here, a caution would be best, because a conviction is almost certain.

I'd speak to the university and unions as soon as possible, and her solicitor.

KittensoftPuppydog · 15/05/2013 08:54

Just wanted to add my support. To those who are judging this woman, have you never made a mistake? Seems to me like she was set up.

Hanginggardenofboobylon · 15/05/2013 09:01

She would be convicted at court, she has admitted it in interview and there is CCTV. They could choose to prosecute without the evidence of the ex (if they have a hard line DV policy). It does not seem like there is a case for self defence on what you have said.

The reasons behind the assault are mitigation not a defence. I think she should be accepting the caution. This isn't a case of lazy policing (which is often the reason to refuse cautions) she has admitted it.
Only your friend can make the decision, I have sympathy for her but she has committed an offence.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 09:05

NHS workers- would she have a better chance of getting work when qualified with a caution rather than a conviction?x

OP posts:
Innacorner · 15/05/2013 09:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiredemma · 15/05/2013 09:08

She is going to have to jump through some hoops to convince a panel that she isn't likely to wallop the next patient who winds her up.

CajaDeLaMemoria · 15/05/2013 09:13

I think the overwhelming theme from everyone here is that she will find it really tough to get work as a nurse with either a conviction or a caution.

But, I can't see her walking away with neither. There's so much evidence, and the police seem keen to proceed. So that makes walking away with nothing impossible. Once you add in her admission and the evidence, she'll almost certainly be convicted.

She'll probably get a fine and/or community service. If she's struggling for money, does she know how she will pay it?

She needs to talk to her uni and unions and find out if she has any chance of being able to stay if she accepts the caution, and if anything changes if she fights it and gets convicted. There may be no chance either way. They may prefer the caution, and be willing to discuss that, but find a recent conviction for assault too much. She needs to find out ASAP.

Jinty64 · 15/05/2013 09:17

She needs to take advice from the unions. She needs to find out if she will be allowed to continue her training with a caution or a conviction as, without completing her training, she won't be applying for a job.

I have interviewed someone with a criminal conviction (not for assault). They did not get the job because they were not the best candidate but had applied, done their training and were working in a good position prior to applying for our job so someone must have invested trust in them. If I am honest it did put me off though.

Jinty64 · 15/05/2013 09:18

X-post with Caja