Accepting a caution while training to be a nurse

[burntoutteacher]

This is a really brief synopsis, hope you guys can help.

My friend is training to be a nurse. Her mentally abusive ex has been harassing her via the authorities since they split. In 18 months he has taken her to court for access (but doesn't show up ), and reported her to SS and she had to be interviewed twice. He won't work officially but does have jobs on the quiet, doesn't pay towards the children either.

Foolishly, she approached him at his place of work 6 months ago and argued with him over money. He started pushing her out of the shop and she lashed out and hit him across the chest. He called the police and wants her prosecuted. She has begged him not to, given the effect it will have on her career and the children, but he just laughed.

Police want to caution her instead but my understanding is that it will remain on her file for 100 years and will be just as damaging for her career. She has to sign the caution tomorrow and is devastated.

Is there anything at all she can do? Police have apparently tried to reason with him but he said he feels victimised ( don't get me started on that) and so she is to be cautioned.

She feels the career she tried so hard for is about to be shattered and he will then find new ways of beating her down. Please help:/

It's not that she'd be done for domestic abuse but that its an aggravating factor so would be the fact that she attacked him at work. What it means is that the case would be viewed more seriously and any subsequent punishment would be worse. It may be worth asking to attend the solicitor with her to hear things first hand.

I'm not based there any more jacks otherwise I would be ( and the reason I started this thread as I was struggling to comprehend how it all got to this stage tbh)

Are uni happy for her to continue with placements?

I just mean that there is an awful lot of other factors being discussed that are difficult to keep track of.

If I ignore everything else, I get that your friend went to her ex's workplace, an argument ensued, she struck him, it's on CCTV and he is insisting that the police take action which they are in the form of a caution which she now has to decide whether to accept or roll the dice and go to court.

It's all the other details I'm having trouble with, there's just so much of it.

Families getting involved, solicitors all advising essentially the same thing, the police doing their thing and at the end your friend is trying to save her career.

It's everything, OP.

Unless the NI system is completely and utterly different, which it shouldn't be, the whole investigation has been conducted in an extraordinarily weird manner.

The lengthy delay, the deadline for signing a caution, the confusion about the potential charge, the solicitors all over the place, the ex having legal aid for things you don't generally get legal aid for, the solicitor supposedly liaising with the complainant, the PPS guy agreeing to talk to a suspect who's walked in off the street, while ignoring the representations of the police and solicitor, the sister's actions being blamed on your friend, rather than the sister being investigated herself, the extended deadline for providing info about why she shouldn't be charged.

It's not just one thing that doesn't add up - it's the whole set-up. If you're sure she's telling you what is actually happening, then she needs to instruct a solicitor in very clear terms to take her through the chronology, the legal position and the options, in very detailed and understandable terms.

All you've got on this thread is a whole load of people, myself included, scratching their heads over a bizarre situation and falling back on 'oh wel, maybe it's very different over there'.

If it isn't very different over there, then this whole thing sounds like a right balls-up and she needs to be asking some very careful questions of her solicitor.

She hasn't been charged with anything so uni can't take her off placements. They are aware she is facing one and are supportive to an extent. She already knows about the fitness to practice board and knows she will be referred there if cautioned.

Kung fu et al....sorry this has caused so much confusion. Not sure what to say to be honest, but thanks for your help.

Will let this thread go now and update if poss.

burnt

The uni DO NOT need to wait until she is charged in order to remove her from placement.

Not saying they should but they need to risk assess the situation alongside her placement as a matter of urgency. Her mentor also needs to know as she is working under THEIR PIN number.

The RCN are a bloody good union and are probably 'shirty' because they can see that this situation is potentially very very serious for her and yet there are now a number of us who have posted concerns for it to be just deemed 'ok' as she might one day face a 'fitness to practice'

This is not just about her ability to be a good nurse but about how this reflects upon her profession and her university... its how it impacts on her mentor and her placement area...

I'll give you a few scenarios

She's charged, it makes the paper and a patient realises that she cared for them after the assault and complains to the hospital or worse, the local paper?

One of her ex's family find out where she is on placement and tell them she is facing a charge for assault?

An unconnected serious adverse incident occurs on placement - where is her credibility with regards to giving evidence?

All of those scenarios may not directly affect your friend but as a nurse you should take responsibility for your own actions and not doing so will look very bad with a fitness to practice panel.

I suggests she starts listening to the RCN as I imagine they are telling her not to go placement or to talk to uni again... this is about protecting herself as much as anyone else and it is NOT a given that the uni have dealt with it appropriately...

By signing the caution she is admitting guilt. I would strongly advise her not to accept the caution as it will come up on any enhanced DBS check.

Doris, she isn't going to be charged as she will accept the caution if the pps insist after this.

I've already explained that she's spoken to the uni in person and at length. Are you saying everyone should be taken off placement even while they are being investigated? Because that's essentially the stage that they're at.

Agree with doris

Have also had dealings with RCN and found them very effective.

I hope your friend gets a resolution soon.

im back.

kungfu has said what i didnt get time to post at length earlier - like i said before a lot of this isnt adding up for those who work within the legal system - myself included.

im not suggesting anything other than that your friend is very confused, but she may also be telling you snippets of misinformation - and you are then trying to get advice here based on that.

like i said pages back - she needs legal advice - proper legal advice. There is no way the CPS prosecutor would engage with someone walking in off the street, the sister would be investigated but your friend would not and could not be held accountable for someone elses actions, she doesnt know what exactly she is being charged with, i dont understand the delays in dealing with it - the police do not just keep doing what a suspect or a victim tells them to do - her ex cannot just demand that the police prosecute or caution for something - its up to the police, they are not puppets for people to use as they wish, they can offer a caution with an inspectors approval, but if its refused then its court. The facts as i could determine are that its been a difficult split, he goads her, she fell for it, she hit him across the face which was captured on CCTV and he rang the police, its counted as domestic violence and the police have acted positively.

I think your friend is telling you things in a very biased way - of course she will - she firmly believes she is in the right and that her ex is in the wrong - that may be true - but it will definitely colour the information that you are getting.

so much of what you have said your friend has said is just wrong. And as kungfu says - we are all just confused and thinking the NI system must be very different to the english system.....so different in fact as to be undecipherable.

tell your friend to actually go and see a criminal lawyer.
tell your friend to take someone with her.
tell your friend to write down or get her friend to write down what that lawyer tells her.

if anyone is to help they need cold, hard facts, not 'maybe this' and 'she thinks that' and' he says, she says'.

its very hard to work out what on earth is happening with this case. on the face of it it is a simple case that has got very very very complicated and i dont understand why.

What I said Burnt was if they dont take her off placement they should have risk assessed with the placement.

And yes the uni / placement have the right to suspend her from course during the investigatory phase or keep her from placement.

Long conversations with uni are only helpful IF they have done what they should have done... the RCN's reaction makes me think they havent or they would be reassuring her.

Caution or charge are equally bad - she's broken the law...

For goodness sake this is a profession that requires you to declare speeding points and has disciplined those who failed to declare them!!!

I had a friend who was in a similar position but for a non-violent offence. By accepting the caution your friend is accepting guilt and she needs to think v carefully about the implications of this. My friend was suspended from uni whilst being investigated and had to go before the nmc and uni for them to determine fitness to practice before being allowed to continue on the course. It was v touch and go for a while.

I'm in NI, but the caution was given on the mainland, so I've no idea of the legal process involved.....

And as said above, the NMC requires you to declare speeding points (and is v cats bum about them) so she must inform them. Going before fitness to practice doesn't necessarily mean her career will be over....

Oh, and she should totally get advice from her union - rcn, or unison possibly better in this type of situation.

Can any of her bosses/mentors/tutors vouch for her previous good character?

But the point is that someone who becomes violent when they are crossand frustrated should not be caring for people who are in a vulnerable position.

Am glad I am not the only one having trouble deciphering this bizarre set of circumstances!

You see, up here, to have a case reported to the Proc Fiscal (equiv of DPP down south), a person who has been suspected of committing a crime must have been charged by the police.It then goes to Proc Fiscal to decide whether they proceed with prosecution, based on those charges. According to some of the info on this thread, that doesn't happen elsewhere . So I must be living on some kind of parallel universe somewhere. :o

As far as NMC guidelines are concerned (which applies to students as well as qualified nurses), if you are subject of police investigation for any crime, even if not been prosecuted, then a risk assessment would be done to see if that person poses a danger to vulnerable people. Anyone who doesn't report it to their employer/uni, could actually be chucked off their course for not declaring it. Which is basically what the RCN were saying.Exact scenario that dayshiftdoris posted. And yup, you have to declare speeding points etc, re fitness to practice.

Basically, the day you sign up for nursing, you practically have to declare what you had for your breakfast :o, and the NMC have a very strict code of conduct. I work with vulnerable people also, and I also have to declare to my employer, if I am ever the subject of police enquiries, and it goes up the ladder to decide whether I can carry on with my job, and could be suspended on full pay (depending on circumstances), while the decision is made.

A caution-as someone else has said-is an admission of guilt, and again she needs a good solicitor. It would be a shame that she lost her career over her controlling eejit ex, however she is going to be in a challenging career where she is going to be dealing with violent aggressive people, so she needs to learn to control her temper under pressure. Sorry.

Interested to know outcome of this

Susanne & Embolsion

Thank you - I was beginning to think I was talking gobbly gook!