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AIBU?

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Original poster

Accepting a caution while training to be a nurse

369 replies

burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 21:42

This is a really brief synopsis, hope you guys can help.

My friend is training to be a nurse. Her mentally abusive ex has been harassing her via the authorities since they split. In 18 months he has taken her to court for access (Confusedbut doesn't show up ), and reported her to SS and she had to be interviewed twice. He won't work officially but does have jobs on the quiet, doesn't pay towards the children either.

Foolishly, she approached him at his place of work 6 months ago and argued with him over money. He started pushing her out of the shop and she lashed out and hit him across the chest. He called the police and wants her prosecuted. She has begged him not to, given the effect it will have on her career and the children, but he just laughed.

Police want to caution her instead but my understanding is that it will remain on her file for 100 years and will be just as damaging for her career. She has to sign the caution tomorrow and is devastated.

Is there anything at all she can do? Police have apparently tried to reason with him but he said he feels victimised ( don't get me started on that) and so she is to be cautioned.

She feels the career she tried so hard for is about to be shattered and he will then find new ways of beating her down. Please help:/

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 01:00

Spero, ignore compos, what she has written is a load of bull

OP posts:
ComposHat · 15/05/2013 01:05

I am not derailing - I just take exception to the 'my friend has just assualted someone how do I help them get off and preserve their career ' that the op and a number of posters think is acceptable.

Ok, so by zero tolerance to violence, you would reconvict those women whose convictions for murder/manslaughter were overturned because they had been battered?

You would lump this woman in with the same category of men who repeatedly and persistantly beat their partners to control them?

Of course not, that would fall under the category of self-defence and there is no indication that the person in question was in that question.

Spiro youi seem reluctant to answer the question, would you advise the same course of action in the circumstances described if the genders were reversed?

Spero · 15/05/2013 01:15

Sorry, I don't want t derail buti think this has relevance when it comes to the public interest part of the test, assuming NI has it. They must have something similar because criminal trials are expensive.

If a man had gone to a woman's place of work, begging her for money for their children and she had taunted him with wads of cash and he lost control and hit her, provided he had no previous history of violence and she was not injured, I would have exactly the same sympathies for that man as I do for the ops friend.

I would certainly not feel that a man in such circs should lose his livelihood. If I was a police officer on the scene I would have words with them both and tell them to stay away from one another.

ComposHat · 15/05/2013 01:19

If a man had gone to a woman's place of work, begging her for money for their children and she had taunted him with wads of cash and he lost control and hit her, provided he had no previous history of violence and she was not injured, I would have exactly the same sympathies for that man as I do for the ops friend.

The begging for money and then taunting with wads of cash is pure projection on your part.

So you are saying in some circumstances, it is okay or is forgiveable for a man to assualt the mother of his children?

I'd say it is always unacceptable.

Morloth · 15/05/2013 01:21

As vicar says the bare bones of it is that she is guilty of assaulting him.

Any sentence should take into account provocation, previous good character etc.

But she did assault him, she is guilty of that.

In her shoes I would go to court and hope for the best.

Spero · 15/05/2013 01:29

I am quoting what the op says happens. It could all be lies, but I am assuming it is the truth. Her friend went to get money for their children, so I assume she needed help with uniforms. He waved cash around and told her she would get nothing. Hugely provocative.

I appreciate she is guilty of assault. But this is where the public interest test comes in. The criminal law is not a factory conveyor belt. It stands and falls on what the public think of the behaviour. I would not want my taxes spent on prosecuting anyone in these circumstances.

I would want them both warned to stay away from one another and of there was any repetition, prosecution would follow.

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/05/2013 01:32

OP, is she a member of the RCN or UNISON? If so, get her to ring them for legal advice first thing in the morning.

Morloth · 15/05/2013 01:37

God yes Spero that is why I think she should go to court with it.

Sounds like she needs a new lawyer.

ComposHat · 15/05/2013 01:39

I don't see where waving money in her face was mentioned spero apologies if I missed it.

Even so if a friend of mine had made a decision to go to their ex partner's work and then assault them, they'd be my ex-friend (regardless of gender) and if they asked my opinion, I'd tell them that they needed to accept the consequences of their actions.

jaywall · 15/05/2013 01:42

burntoutteacher

It seems as though your friend does not have many options. She committed the crime, has admitted it and there is irrefutable evidence. I have absolutely no legal experience whatsoever but i think its clear that your friend has 2 options. Accept the caution, as going to court will probably go against her and will certainly cost more. Or appeal (NOT PERSONALLY OR IN PERSON) to the complainant.

If it were me, in this situation, if i had invested much time and money into my career which could seriously be permanently derailed by this incident then i would be thinking outside the box. If the complainant drops any complaint ..that would be it over with surely? (solicitors?)

Maybe try and make a deal with him, weigh up the costs of pursuing her defence in court against a financial offer to him to drop any complaint or similar. Only she could decide on balance...taking away the emotion what it might be worth her giving up. Explain to him the facts of her monetary loss on his kids and his liabilities and offer less liability perhaps....

Just an idea and best of luck, it's a shame the country we live in has no legal recognition of being pushed too far for normal human emotions to deal with.

Spero · 15/05/2013 01:43

If this was England it would go to court before magistrates who would probably have no choice but to convict if the CCTV evidence is as clear as op thinks.

And yes, they could take into account all the mitigation in terms of sentence, she might get a metaphorical slap on the wrist.

But that really isn't the point. It is that a conviction or caution for violence may well render her unemployable. That will devastate her life and presumably have negative impact on her children.

All human behaviour falls on a scale, including violence. It is never ok for one person to be violent to another, but to claim that there can never be any distinction between different acts of violence is just pious nonsense and can lead to great injustice for individuals.

She sounds like she has learned her lesson. I wouldn't want her prosecuted.

cafecito · 15/05/2013 01:44

this is something I had to look into as I have a psychotic ex who happens to be a lawyer trying to destroy my medical career. She must not accept the caution. It's worth the risk.

cafecito · 15/05/2013 01:45

but I think an arrest will also show on an enhanced CRB

jaywall · 15/05/2013 01:46

Oh and incidentally...the threshold test mentioned and linked to previously states

5.1 The Threshold Test may only be applied where the suspect presents a substantial bail risk and not all the evidence is available at the time when he or she must be released from custody unless charged.

This seems to make it irrelevant in this instance?

Spero · 15/05/2013 01:48

The threshold test is part one of the two stage test - is there enough evidence to charge? Then you ask is it in the public interest to charge. I don't understand that bail bit either!

cafecito · 15/05/2013 01:53

did she do it, is there evidence to charge. is it beyond reasonable doubt ? well, yes. is it in the public interest? no I think not

BusterKeaton · 15/05/2013 01:59

OP, you say this happened 6 months ago. So, they've just decided recently to caution or charge?

Morloth · 15/05/2013 02:09

So her best bet is to not accept the caution.

It sucks but that is what it comes down to.

Toadinthehole · 15/05/2013 02:16

By "discharge without conviction" I mean "OK, you did it, but the Court thinks entering a conviction and sentence would be disproportionate".

MrsWilliamBodie · 15/05/2013 02:51

Sorry if I?ve missed it but, does he still work at the same place? What is meant by working illegally? Cash in hand?

If she goes to court, his employment will be on court record, so she might actually get some money out of him and HMRC might have a good look at him. He can?t deny he works there, as he would be admitting perjury. He might end up with a lot to lose himself.

I don't think she's got anything to lose by going to court.

Mosman · 15/05/2013 03:03

My understanding is that 6 months is the cut off for prosecution.

I tried to get my nanny's boyfriend prosecuted for an assult on my three year old and was told it was too late and not in the public interest, how the hell can this be ?

sashh · 15/05/2013 03:49

Cautions are a lazy and unethical way of dealing with mior complaints brought by the spiteful.

^^

This big time

Don't accept the caution, it is an admittance of guilt. If, and I doubt it, she goes to court she can show all the complaints made against her. In fact she should be reporting that tot he police as it is harassment.

Springdiva · 15/05/2013 04:21

Is there more CCTV recording of what happened inside the shop - I presume the argument started inside?
Is the pal of ex, who is willing to give evidence describing the incident, his boss in the shop, the one where he is working illegally?
If he is an employee or the employer is he happy to have the fact of the illegal employment mentioned in court?
Can 16 year old daughter be called to give evidence as to provocation from ex?
Why now after 6 months?
Is there anyone who would speak in court about ex being abusive, threatening in the past?
What about the facts that he reported her to SS twice and she had to be interviewed. Is there nothing on record saying ex is malicious or something?
Also his taking her to court for access and not turning up?
Surely if there is proof of his actions towards OP she might have a case for saying he provoked her response.
Might the ex chicken out nearer the time of court case, it will hardly bring favour with the DCs? Could DCs pressure him not to take her to court? Could in-laws?
Does the OP know some heavies who could duff up ex and chuck him in the river with a heavy weight tied to his feet?
NI is a pretty old-fashioned place in my non-expert view so not much hope for OP, they will just go by evidence but if there could be a disadvantage to ex perhaps he will not want to bring charges.

Madamecastafiore · 15/05/2013 04:36

I work for the nhs and we often interview nurses and they are asked about cautions and convictions. If your friends scenario were explained to our manager she would not see it as a reason not to employ her.

Your friend does need to start the ball rolling for some sort of harassment case against xp though.

badgeroncaffeine · 15/05/2013 05:50

Firstly, never accept a caution as has been said countless times.
Secondly, get a very good lawyer. If the CPS have enough "spanners thrown in the works" over a minor case, they often see it as more trouble than it's worth to continue with it. A good lawyer knows how to do it..lol

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