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Original poster

Accepting a caution while training to be a nurse

369 replies

burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 21:42

This is a really brief synopsis, hope you guys can help.

My friend is training to be a nurse. Her mentally abusive ex has been harassing her via the authorities since they split. In 18 months he has taken her to court for access (Confusedbut doesn't show up ), and reported her to SS and she had to be interviewed twice. He won't work officially but does have jobs on the quiet, doesn't pay towards the children either.

Foolishly, she approached him at his place of work 6 months ago and argued with him over money. He started pushing her out of the shop and she lashed out and hit him across the chest. He called the police and wants her prosecuted. She has begged him not to, given the effect it will have on her career and the children, but he just laughed.

Police want to caution her instead but my understanding is that it will remain on her file for 100 years and will be just as damaging for her career. She has to sign the caution tomorrow and is devastated.

Is there anything at all she can do? Police have apparently tried to reason with him but he said he feels victimised ( don't get me started on that) and so she is to be cautioned.

She feels the career she tried so hard for is about to be shattered and he will then find new ways of beating her down. Please help:/

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 22:54

Does anyone know about the difference between a caution/prosecution in terms of employment?

OP posts:
50shadesofmeh · 14/05/2013 22:55

Both a conviction and a caution mean she's unlikely to be employed as a nurse, there is a small chance an employer would overlook it but I doubt it for assault .
The only chance she has is hoping she escapes conviction, if its all on CCTV assault is assault the courts won't give a shit what the back story is.

50shadesofmeh · 14/05/2013 22:56

A caution means she will fail a disclosure check, which is very important when working with the public. She may not get kicked off her course but she will find it difficult finding s job.
A conviction she can kiss goodbye to nursing.

OldRichandGrateful · 14/05/2013 23:07

A caution or a court conviction will show as a criminal record. Either will show up on a DBS check. Both will stay on a record for a minimum of ten years.

If you sign a caution you are admitting your guilt. It will be treated as a conviction for the purposes of a DBS check.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 23:07

So if she thinks the evidence looks bad, should she accept the caution and hope for the best? It sounds as though a conviction is worse for her in terms of getting a job.

Thanks so much for the replies btw, so helpful. This course was everything to my friend and a way of getting out of the hardship and crap he has inflicted on her. She lives in fear now that he will carry on trying to destroy her.

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 23:11

So Richard - are you saying they are the same? Will she be better at least trying to fight it in court?

OP posts:
OldRichandGrateful · 14/05/2013 23:12

Don't sign the caution. Make CPS take her to court and hope that there isn't enough evidence for a conviciton. If she signs the caution she will have no hope of ever getting a nursing job or even finishing the course. A caution for assault will make it diffucult to get many jobs. DON'T, I repeat DON'T sign the caution - it will ruin her life. At least with a court process she has a chance. A caution will give her NO chance.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 23:15

But did you see the bit about CCTV?

OP posts:
50shadesofmeh · 14/05/2013 23:15

I'd get her to speak to a good solicitor and find out what chance she has of escaping conviction.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 23:19

Her sol said none at all, but when you put her deadbeat ex against her, I am perhaps naively hoping a judge would see through him.

OP posts:
Spero · 14/05/2013 23:19

If the police are content to accept a caution would this really go to trial? I can't see how it would pass the public interest test - she is unlikely to be considered a danger to others in this context - unless she has assaulted people before?

As everyone else says, accepting caution is admittance of guilt. So I certainly wouldn't agree to it.

IrritatingInfinity · 14/05/2013 23:22

What does her solicetor suggest?

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 23:25

Spero, I know you're a solicitor. Thanks for the response. The pps asked her to write a letter last month formally asking them not to caution her and expressing regret etc. she did ( I saw the letter and it was very remorseful etc). Does this mean my friend has already admitted guilt and count as evidence?

OP posts:
OldRichandGrateful · 14/05/2013 23:26

The CCTV doesn't matter. I cannot stress strongly enough that as far as a police record or an employer is concerned a caution will feck up her life just as much as a conviction - so she might as well go to court because if she signs the caution she will have a criminal record but she might be found not guilty at court or CPS drop the case - IYSWIM.

Sols and Police say a caution is a just a piece of paper - but it will be treated as a conviction - because that is what it is! Sols and Police use cautions as a quick solution to make their lives easier!! Less paperwork etc.

Tell you friend to take her chances at court - she has nothing to lose!!

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 23:27

She hasn't ever been in trouble before. She has until 3pm tomorrow or else they will begin proceedings:/

OP posts:
ThatVikRinA22 · 14/05/2013 23:29

a caution is not a conviction, but it does show on CRB checks and is an admission of guilt.

your friend needs legal advice pronto. good advice.

why the fuck did she go to his place of work and assault him on CCTV!!!? it matters not what a dick someone is being - hitting them is assault - not matter what the provocation. i am not without sympathy at all, but imagine the tables were turned and he had hit her for provoking him....

she needs to know what the chance of conviction is if this goes to court.
hitting him in the chest - i take it he didnt have injuries? if so its common assault - section 39. Anything more and she wouldnt have even had the option of a caution.

does it pass the threshold test?

have you asked the police this question?
thats the basis to test if it would get to court or not.
domestic assault though is treated very seriously - by either a man or woman - no matter what mitigating circumstances there are. Police cant just change the rules because its a woman doing the assualting. She must have known the risks of confronting him?

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 23:31

Thanks Richard , I'm desperately trying to persuade her but she is terrified of losing at court and being kicked off the course (thereby ruining her chances of any decent career)

He looks cool as a cucumber in the CCTV , while she looks bad:/

OP posts:
ThatVikRinA22 · 14/05/2013 23:31

im a copper btw - you need to know what chance this has reasonably of getting to court.

threshold test - thats the key question. I take it he has given a statement and is willing to go to court and follow through with a complaint?

if not - then the CPS would not run it in my experience.
threshold test.....ask that question.

Spero · 14/05/2013 23:34

I am not a criminal lawyer but as far as I remember the CPS will only initiate a prosecution if they have the evidence to secure a conviction and it is in the public interest to pursue it.

They have clearly got the evidence here but I can't see how the public interest is served prosecuting her unless the circumstances of the offence were much more serious than she has described to you.

It may be that the police are trying to scare her into taking caution as presumably this makes their clear up rate look better.

Spero · 14/05/2013 23:36

I cant see how writing a letter could ever count against her. Accepting a caution however is hugely significant in her line of work.

StuntGirl · 14/05/2013 23:36

If the caution would fuck her career anyway why not refuse to sign it and take her chances with that? It seems to be her only option to keep her career right now.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 23:38

Never heard of this threshold test. What is it? ( TIA)

Vicar, she feels wretched, truly, but I cannot stress to you enough what this man has put her through. She reacted in a moment of madness.

Her solicitor told her not to bother fighting it, but I'm confused, because aren't they trying to make a living?

OP posts:
OldRichandGrateful · 14/05/2013 23:39

Listen to the copper op. Threshold test - that's the key question.

At the risk of repeating myself, if she signs the caution she will probably be kicked off the course anyway AND she will never get a job as a nurse with a Caution for a Section 39 Common Assault.

Spero · 14/05/2013 23:40

There is very little money to be made in criminal law, I assume she is not paying privately? If legal aid, solicitor may well be better of if she just accepts caution or pleads guilty.

OldRichandGrateful · 14/05/2013 23:41

Some Sols like to take the easy route of a caution - the pay is the same!