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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Accepting a caution while training to be a nurse

369 replies

burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 21:42

This is a really brief synopsis, hope you guys can help.

My friend is training to be a nurse. Her mentally abusive ex has been harassing her via the authorities since they split. In 18 months he has taken her to court for access (Confusedbut doesn't show up ), and reported her to SS and she had to be interviewed twice. He won't work officially but does have jobs on the quiet, doesn't pay towards the children either.

Foolishly, she approached him at his place of work 6 months ago and argued with him over money. He started pushing her out of the shop and she lashed out and hit him across the chest. He called the police and wants her prosecuted. She has begged him not to, given the effect it will have on her career and the children, but he just laughed.

Police want to caution her instead but my understanding is that it will remain on her file for 100 years and will be just as damaging for her career. She has to sign the caution tomorrow and is devastated.

Is there anything at all she can do? Police have apparently tried to reason with him but he said he feels victimised ( don't get me started on that) and so she is to be cautioned.

She feels the career she tried so hard for is about to be shattered and he will then find new ways of beating her down. Please help:/

OP posts:
kungfupannda · 15/05/2013 18:19

If its NI then a fair amount of what some of us have been advising may not be correct.

In the English system, I would be astonished that she managed to track down a prosecutor who was willing to have a meeting with an accused who walked in off the street and would be strongly advising her not to get her hopes up in case he was just making neutral noises before going to the police to find out what on earth is going on.

The NI system must be hugely different, because under the English system, almost everything she has said about what is happening would be very odd indeed.

Probably best she seeks NI specific advice from someone who knows that system.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 18:23

SBG, not a silly question, but yes she's been dealing with the police personally. She was even at the pps office today to speak to main guy.

Spero yes, she wants a neutral place as well and is pushing for it. Will get her to contact WA to get it rolling. Thanks everyone. You have been great. I'll update as soon as I can.

If you knew the full story regarding what this guy has put my friend and his children through, you would be horrified. So much of it isn't relevant to this particular incident though so I have just laid out the bare facts. She knows it was wrong to go there and strike him on the face, she really does, but I second what others have said about only being able to take so much and she snapped (he was calling her a 'dog' at the time). For those who express concern at how she would cope with an irate patient, well the only thing I would say there is that as a nurse, you don't necessarily have to face abuse and harassment from the same person daily. I am a teacher myself and understand the pressures that public sector workers can face, and I honestly don't believe she would ever do that. To give you a little bit of context of who she is...this girl visits her lonely and isolated service users on Christmas Day, takes them food shopping on her days off and was nominated for Carer of the Year.
She does not deserve this and I am so thankful to this thread for helping her to see that she had other options.

OP posts:
ilikehomecookedfood · 15/05/2013 18:39

You've given a lot of detail here which would surely make her easily identifiable. Does she know you're posting here?

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 18:52

Yes of course she knows

OP posts:
StuntGirl · 15/05/2013 19:00

I hope she can get this resolved and move on with her life.

dayshiftdoris · 15/05/2013 19:26

I know the last poster who mentioned this got involved in a dispute about cautions, charges, etc but she made a very good point.

Your friend shouldn't be on placement without a risk assessment - forget the rights and wrongs of the case or whatever she is potentially going to be a criminal and that undermines her professional integrity.

I am very very surprised that she has been allowed on placement as most uni's would not have allowed it until after the investigation & decision from the CPS.

As a mentor, if I discovered this I would not be happy to sign off her assessments or practice unless I was absolutely sure that the risk assessment was in place and that uni AND the management of the placement were absolutely happy she was there.
If I was the 'sign off' mentor on her final placement I would be taking advice as to whether I could sign her off as it would be MY PIN number at risk.

Sorry but it really is THAT important as she is potentially practicing without a clear DBS (replaced CRB in Dec).

The other thing to note is even if all of this is dropped a chief inspector could still consider it 'soft information' and pop up on DBS.

Sorry but your friend is not out of the woods yet and needs to talk university about placement as a matter of urgency and ensure that she is being protected from further issues... for a start what if a member of her ex's family found out where she was on placement and told them she was facing charges???

50shadesofmeh · 15/05/2013 19:31

I didn't mean your friend wasn't intimidated just how it looks to a court.
I've seen there is a bit more hope for her , I hope the case gets thrown out and your friend gets to continue with her nursing, it certainly seems to mean a lot to her, her ex sounds like scum too.

jacks365 · 15/05/2013 19:44

Just been reading up on the justice system for northern Ireland. The police must charge your friend before the case is sent to the pps, she must appear in court within 28 days of charge and if the pps don't want to proceed to trial they can go the caution route. A caution IS a criminal record and will always show up on an enhanced check.

It is not up to the ex to decide to prosecute but the pps, they are the only ones who can make that decision. In my opinion it sounds like someone has messed up over procedure and they are trying to back her into a corner to protect themselves either that or your friend isn't telling you everything.

ThatVikRinA22 · 15/05/2013 19:51

burnt - i couldnt say if its looking better for her or not but kungfupanda and voiced a few posts up exactly what i was about to say - the NI system must be very different. Here, that just wouldnt happen - the CPS would not meet the accused until a date of a hearing.

They are the crown prosecution service....the clue is in the name im afraid - and i need to just point out that the CPS are not the police.

The police collect the evidence.
they present it to the CPS lawyers
the CPS lawyers decide on whether to send the case to court or not, after they have viewed all the available evidence.
Your friend was offered a caution as a means of disposal - its less messy than a prosecution if its an available option (it depends very much of the circumstances and any previous convictions)

Your friend needs to see a solicitor. I think its crucial.(you do not have to be arrested to be interviewed btw) I do not understand the system in NI so she needs accurate legal advice imo, she has been given some breathing space so she needs to utilise it - it nay not change the outcome but buys her some time to seek advice.

Here, a section 39 assault is statute barred after 6 months. I do not know about the system in ireland. It could be that it is being dealt with as a Section 47 assault (massive bug bear with me and one that i have raised millions of times now - police charging standards are different from the CPS charging standards - for me, the circs you described make it a s39 - but i know in my force they would investigate it as a S47 - and that isnt statute barred after 6 months....

she needs to know exactly what section assault she is being investigated for and she needs to get accurate legal advice.

hth

ThatVikRinA22 · 15/05/2013 19:53

Iif it helps - i had a similar assault - domestic. man on woman though. i did tons of work on it - it was given to me to investigate as a S47.
i did the leg work.
i presented it to CPS.
They immediately contacted me back to say it did not meet their criteria for a S47 and as a S39 it was statute barred.....

worth checking.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 20:15

The man she saw today is the prosecutor for the pps ( think that's what it's called over there, friend says it is?) and he said he would do what he could. I don't understand why he would say that? She hasn't been charged, that I'm sure of.

Vic and others, thanks for the info. Doesn't look great does it:/

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 20:16

What's the criteria for a S47 vic?

OP posts:
LaGuardia · 15/05/2013 20:22

If she is the sort of person who assaults someone, is she in the right job? Hmm

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 20:23

And even if there's evidence, does a s39 assault still mean it wouldn't be able to proceed? ( statute barred?)
Sorry, not very familiar with all this

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 20:27

Jacks- your post is very interesting.

She hasn't been charged, police told her pps have decided on a caution, but when they tried to make her sign it months ago, she protested like mad and they said they would wait and see. Now out of the blue they are trying to get her to sign it again.

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 20:28

Laguardia, there is more to this.

OP posts:
marriedinwhiteagain · 15/05/2013 20:29

I have only read the first page and I'm afraid my view is that nurses get involved in the private social affairs of those they are caring for. From what you have said your friennd sounds as though she has poor judgement and I would not want such a person responsible for the personal care of me or my family.

Woofers · 15/05/2013 20:30

I worked with a nurse who was CHARGED with actual bodily harm when she punched a woman in a nightclub. Pre nursing and the woman had slept with her husband - not that it makes any difference.

However my point is this.
She got into Uni, she disclosed it, she showed remorse for it, she has REFLECTED on it (buzz word there) and she now brings it up at any interview she gets, baring in mind to get to interview you have to pass the paper sift and if you disclose it on there then they already know about it.

I also lived in student digs with a student social worker who had a charge of theft from Woolworths when she was 16. Same as above. Be honest about it. Learn from it.

Good luck!!!!!

ThatVikRinA22 · 15/05/2013 21:15

sorry burnt i was off the net for a bit....

i will try to answer your questions.

ok. what i have found, is that the police crime things as one thing and investigate as one thing, where the CPS would catagorise it as something else....
so. take the assualt by your friend.
I would say it was a S39 assault. The CPS HERE in England would probably say it was a section 39 assault - that means that an assault has been committed and your friend has used force - but its not caused any injury (other than perhaps some reddening of the skin and some pain??)
now the police would crime it as a S 47 assault in many instances.
For me, the definition of a S 47 assault is when there is briusing, broken skin, bleeding, (black eyes, split lips - that kind of thing) but often i see S 39s investigated as S47s....the thing that matters is how the CPS view it.

a S39 here in England is statute barred 6 months from when it happened. If she is being investigated or potentially charged with a S39 assault then its way past its sell by date in terms of getting a prosecution - this is why she needs legal advice PRONTO. Dont take the caution until she has found out what section and act she is being potentially charged with. If it is indeed a S39 then she is home and dry - there is sod all anyone can do about it unless the law differs wildly in NI to here???

If however the CPS are agreeing its a S47 assault then there is not "time limit" for charging. but like i say - the police and the CPS often differ wildly on what section an assault is.....its very important to find out what the potential charge is. PM me if you want.

i hope you can understand this....its all quite complex and DH glazes over when i try to explain!

dayshiftdoris · 15/05/2013 21:16

Woofer

Your friend now has a history which is clear - this girl does not. She has shown it was a one off and moved her life on, this girl can not show that.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 21:32

Vic, thanks so much. I've sent your post to her, it's really hopeful!
Also- she said that she has 'appealed' them giving her a caution and that's the reason they've held off. Can you do that? The police are saying that's why they haven't charged her- because she has appealed being given a caution? That sounds rubbish to me?
Sounds like she is being told so many things:-/

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 21:34

One more thing- she has just said the pps are also referring to it as an appeal? How can you appeal a caution if you haven't actually been given it??

OP posts:
ThatVikRinA22 · 15/05/2013 21:47

burnt - this is why she needs solid legal advice from a solicitor who practices in NI and who knows irish law.

im speaking as someone who knows english law - i openly admit i dont know irish law.

here, you cannot "appeal" a caution. you either accept it, or you dont.
if you dont, the CPS here make the decision on charging to court.
then its out of police hands and over to the magistrate. (or jury if its a crown court job - but rest assured your friend is never going to crown court over this one!!)

she must get advice from someone who knows irish law. She wont need much time with a solicitor - but it would be money well spent.

wigglesrock · 15/05/2013 21:53

The reason I believe that they are saying she is appealing the caution is that to have been considered for a caution she has admitted the offence - in order to have been offered the caution she has held her hands up and said she's done it. The caution is a result of discussions and info between PPS, PSNI. Obviously as she has admitted it and there is evidence of the assault a caution was offered as its not a conviction ie your friend has a clean record, first offence etc.

I'm sorry I can't scroll back to see exactly the ins and outs of it all.

I really feel for your friend and its shite that it may result in the termination of her career but she did it, admitted it and now doesn't want the punishment. I know its terribly unfair and I hope there is some kind if better resolution for her, but I'm not sure what.

Hanginggardenofboobylon · 15/05/2013 21:54

The only person who can give the correct advice is an NI qualified criminal defence solicitor. Everyone on here is doing their best to fathom some very strange facts and seemingly conflicting bits of information. The more that comes out the more confusing it gets, I am concerned that she is going to follow advice on here and not that of a properly qualified person. Vicar and Kungfu are very qualified (england) and doing their best to help but I am not sure it is any substitute for speaking to an NI solicitor. It sounds like she needs to have the process explained to her in more detail.

No offence intended to those helping, it's just this is an incredibly important decision with huge implications.