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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Accepting a caution while training to be a nurse

369 replies

burntoutteacher · 14/05/2013 21:42

This is a really brief synopsis, hope you guys can help.

My friend is training to be a nurse. Her mentally abusive ex has been harassing her via the authorities since they split. In 18 months he has taken her to court for access (Confusedbut doesn't show up ), and reported her to SS and she had to be interviewed twice. He won't work officially but does have jobs on the quiet, doesn't pay towards the children either.

Foolishly, she approached him at his place of work 6 months ago and argued with him over money. He started pushing her out of the shop and she lashed out and hit him across the chest. He called the police and wants her prosecuted. She has begged him not to, given the effect it will have on her career and the children, but he just laughed.

Police want to caution her instead but my understanding is that it will remain on her file for 100 years and will be just as damaging for her career. She has to sign the caution tomorrow and is devastated.

Is there anything at all she can do? Police have apparently tried to reason with him but he said he feels victimised ( don't get me started on that) and so she is to be cautioned.

She feels the career she tried so hard for is about to be shattered and he will then find new ways of beating her down. Please help:/

OP posts:
ThatVikRinA22 · 15/05/2013 21:55

but in England you cannot "appeal" a caution. you either accept it, or you dont.
if you dont, the process continues all the way to court usually.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 22:03

Thanks again. She has a solicitor- he has advised her to take the caution as I've explained upthread.

She is now going to call the sol first thing to ask about the 39/47 thing as it sounds hopeful.

I'm sorry for those who've found it confusing. My friend herself is confused, believe me.

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 22:04

Wiggle- that sounds spot on to me.

OP posts:
Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 22:11

Vic, I have told my friend that you cannot 'appeal' a caution- how can you appeal something you haven't been given?! But she insists that the PSNi( NI police ) and pps ( prosecution service) are referring to the situation as such and the reason therefore that they have decided not to prosecute since then.

Maybe I am kidding myself ( she is my childhood friend, I can't bear what's happening) but perhaps jacks is right and the psni have messed up by not charging her? Perhaps you're right about the section 39/47 thing and its too late? I've implored her now to explore all this tomorrow and I know she will. I thank you so much.

Btw- the pps are giving her two weeks to use the time to gather as much info as she can regarding her ex and what the caution will do to her etc etc

OP posts:
ThatVikRinA22 · 15/05/2013 22:26

all i can think is that the irish system is very different to the english one. (i hold my hands up and am openly saying i know sod all about irish law)

im just speaking from experience of english law....it may be very different.

or
your friend is extremely confused.

wigglesrock · 15/05/2013 22:38

I think your friend is clinging to the idea of an "appeal" Someone has used the word to try and explain the situation ifyswim. She can't actually appeal the caution. A caution has been decided by PPS as the way forward. If she refuses the caution it will go to court where a conviction would look likely. But I know she's your best friend but it does feel that there's some missing info or confusion.

She really really needs to speak in person to a good criminal solicitor. It should have been dealt with within 6 months but there are reasons why it mightn't have been. It's a very big decision and she really needs to talk to her solicitor as soon as she can and try and get everything clearer.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 22:44

Vick - it's northern Irish law, which I've always thought was more or less the exact same as British law? ( I'm from NI too)

Wiggles, yeah it sounds like she would be convicted if it went to court. I know that now based on this thread and have told her that. She also accepts this now, but wants to try one last time to avoid the caution. I'm glad she is trying at least, because if you read this thread, she was going to sign it at 3pm today.

OP posts:
Anomaly · 15/05/2013 23:06

I can't advise on law but I can say I was a juror on a case involving a 21 year old girl. She was shown on CCTV smacking a policeman repeatedly with an umbrella. She was very drunk and the policeman was arresting her boyfriend. We sat and listened to the evidence including statements from a number of people as to her excellent character. The judge chucked the jurors out and did some negotiating and she was effectively found not guilty. The judge really didn't want to mess up this girls life. I really hope all turns out OK for your friend op.

ThatVikRinA22 · 15/05/2013 23:20

ah great....another fab reason to do my job then. so i can get assaulted with a brolly or killed on duty and im sure my dh will be muchly comforted by the fact mrs may today said cop killers can do life....
for a job to go to a jury it has to go to crown court - that means a much more serious assault than a slap anomaly.

as i said to my colleague....im sure that will bring dh much comfort if im killed on the job.
not.
how about treating us decently while we are alive....eh? eh??? Smile
instead of the usual guff about "she died doing the job she loved" if i cork it on the job i want my pic in the paper with this accompanying headline.....
"she died doing the job that paid off her overdraft". i reckon that sums it up!

not ranting at anyone in particular you understand.....
anyway. i digress. i hope my input had been of some use to your friend OP. i think i need to exit stage right....

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 15/05/2013 23:39

Didn't really understand your last post vic, but just want to say you've been brilliant on this thread and i will update.

Cheers all

OP posts:
AgnesBligg · 15/05/2013 23:42

VicarInaTutu Grin You done great on this thread copper.

ThatVikRinA22 · 15/05/2013 23:55

Grin thank you.

dont worry burnt i was just having a rant about the government treatment of us (police fed conference is happening and theresa may was talking today at it, she says cop killers will get life in future....oh joy! not...i dont think ill care particularly when im dead!)

i hope you get to the bottom of things for your friend and its clear you care very much about her. do update me.
take care!

RedHelenB · 16/05/2013 00:13

Not wishing to be the voice of doom & gloom but I thought the whole crb process in the wake of Soham was so that ANY involvement with the police would show up ( he had no convictions only reported incidences if I remember correctly) when applying for jobs.

cumfy · 16/05/2013 00:16

I would also want a copy of the communication from the PPS/CPS inviting her to write a letter of apology.

If there is any hint that they indicated they were accepting that letter in full settlement for the offence, they may be on very dodgy grounds vis her ECHR Article 6 rights not to incriminate herself (without being informed of her rights not to), and possibly protocols regarding offers from the CPS not being subject to withdrawal once accepted, explicitly or implicitly.

ThatVikRinA22 · 16/05/2013 00:22

i thought that the result of soham was that intelligence was shared between police forces.....

this was just coming in as i was in training

i would imagine that each individual circumstance is reviewed on its merits - an allegation of sexual abuse against a minor is different to slapping your ex in the mush when they wouldnt cough up some cash for school uniform....

olgaga · 16/05/2013 00:22

Just wanted to say burnt you're a bloody good friend. Smile

And Vicar, these are for you right. Flowers!

RedHelenB · 16/05/2013 00:26

Still assault though & as it has been pointed out patience & ability to stay calm is a key requirement for nursing

ThatVikRinA22 · 16/05/2013 00:33

i understand what you are saying red

i am the calmest person ever. i can difuse most things because im calm, mild mannered.
but there have been times when i have seriously had to check myself when dealing with my son who has Aspergers - there have been times i could have cheerfully decked him....usually at around 3am when he is romping around the house not giving a fuck that im up at 5am.....so i follow the letter of the law but i am also human and i have human failings just like 99% of the population.
im still a bloody good cop though despite wanting to lamp my offspring occasionally....Smile

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 16/05/2013 01:07

Yes indeed you are a good copper VicGrin
The friend I speak of is my best friend in the whole world....truly. We've been friends since we were 8 years old. This is the worst thing I think she's ever been through ( she kicked cancers ass at the age of 25) and I just want to see her be the best that she can be....which isn't this!

I'll say it again. I bloody love MNGrinGrinGrin

OP posts:
ThatVikRinA22 · 16/05/2013 01:31

ta burnt my point was really just to say that you can be human, have human reactions and human failings, but still be good at your job.

i know for a fact i would never ever assault anyone - i am very mild mannered and very gentle.
that said there have been times that my son has pushed me to the very limits of patience.....and i have yodelled for england at the top of my voice.....he is infuriating at times. no regard for others due to autism....makes hard work living with someone
it does not mean i should not be doing the job im doing.
im sure the same is for nursing. the way we react to those we live with or know well would not perhaps be the way we would react to a stranger who is trying our patience....

SolidGoldBrass · 16/05/2013 02:28

I don't know anything of Irish law either but I do think that your friend needs to see a solicitor WRT bringing a case against her XH for persistent harassment. If he's been repeatedly reporting her to SS and the family courts out of sheer malice, then I think there may well be something that can be done about this: in some countries there is a judgement that can be made that a person is a 'vexatious litigant' ie someone who keeps trying to launch ridiculous legal proceedings out of malice, and such a person can be banned from taking legal action.

Spero · 16/05/2013 08:41

I agree with Vicar. The point I was trying to make earlier is that emotional reactions to relationship breakdowns can be very strong as all your buttons get pushed. I have never felt pushed to the edge by an angry or upset client, I can stay detached and focused, but when it is your ex goading and harassing you, particularly when the children are involved it is very different.

Therefore I don't think you can conclude she is unfit for nursing on the basis of this one incident.

Original poster
burntoutteacher · 16/05/2013 09:29

Spero- totally agree.

Ok friend has just called sol. He said its a section 42 common assault? Is this statute barred?

OP posts:
Spero · 16/05/2013 09:35

I don't think she can mean section 42 of the Offences against the person act - that relates to how an offence is tried?

Spero · 16/05/2013 09:37

She must mean section 47? Which I think the criminal experts have said is NOT statue barred?