to think 'sod it' and just have a baby anyway?

[KentishWine]

We have no money, we live in a shit flat and I'm about to start a new job. It's a dreadful time to even be thinking about having a baby. But I'm 36 and the proverbial clock has been ticking for the last year. Its so bloody loud it's driving me insane. Our financial/housing situation won't improve until I'm at least 40. Not an ideal time to start trying for a baby (especially as my DM had an early menopause at 43). I want to do it now!

After rent, bills, debts etc, DH and I have about £500 left over each month for everything else. There's no way I can afford to be a SAHM, we'll both have to work FT so FT childcare is our only choice. This costs £1200 a month (London). We're short by £700! As far as I can work out, we're not eligable for tax credits etc as DH is subject to immigration control until 2015 (I'm British, he's Brazillian). We are eligable for £20/month child benefit, but that wouldn't even touch the sides.

It makes me so sad that we're too poor for a baby. By the time we're not too poor, it's likely to be too late. AIBU to just get pregnant and hope for the best? What's the worst that could happen?

everong- the OP has said they have £500 left over after paying the bills. Not enough for a London nursery, but not 'no money'.

Her 'shit flat' is what millions of people, in developed countries, find ok as a starting point for having one child (and moving on when they have more money). She can go to another better quality flat, one bed and stay there, moving up as itme/career allows. Or stay in a one bed flat and sleep in the lounge on a sofa bed for a few years, with the child in the bedroom, or get a partition, or sleep in altogether as is standard in many cultures.

The OP only feels crap and devalued and like her life is shit because she has been sold the line that material things are incredibly important to small babies, they are not, once basic needs such as food, heating and shelter are taken care of. She feels bad because there are lots of very wealthy people whose lives have become models for us as the way to live, and those of us who have to do perfectly normal things like share a bedroom, eat value food, don't go on every single school trip, are made to feel like bad and neglectful parents. Our happiness index is low in the UK, as are measures of children's happiness, it is much higher in materially poorer countries, and yet we can't seem to see the connection.

QuintessentialOHara your comments above could not be further from the truth. I have worked very hard in my 20s but not in a well paid sector. The work I did was needed in the country I worked in. My job wasn't easy and living overseas for a long time wasn't all fun and games. I was an still am really good at my job. Yes, I find myself in my mid-30s and I don't own a house or have a massive amount of savings..and my flat is damp. But what should I have done?

Let's just focus on a plan for OP to get up the duff without ending up in a garrett, eh?

Only a few people have blindly said to go for it. We can disregard them, as well meaning as they are, they haven't talked fax 'n' figs.

I think it might be helpful to separate the two moral arguments running through this thread.

The argument that in your particular situation it would be irresponsible to have a child is very different to the more general argument that no one should have children unless they can afford it.

I think something has gone badly wrong if, in a Western country that is one of the wealthiest in the world, two parents working on salaries greater than NMW cannot afford to have children. The right to family life is an enshrined right. Children have two biological parents. It should be the case that it is possible to have a child with either one parent working and the other being a SAHP or both parents working and their combined salaries covering childcare. Not necessarily easily, but adequately, without living in poverty. That is not the case, and I think that's a damning indictment on the greed reflected largely in our morally bankrupt housing situation (the main reason for the artificially inflated cost of living in this country). I think it is a crying shame that the OP has fallen foul of this - as have so many other people.

However, being able to justify your right to do something, still doesn't make it a good idea. You don't need a huge amount of money to have children, but worrying about every penny saps an incredible amount of energy and joy from your life. The first 12 months after having a baby is a very high-risk period for marriages failing (for obvious reasons) and financial stressors are one of the main reasons for marital breakdown. Factor in the fact that your DH is currently reliant on you for his right to stay in the UK and that his immigration status will affect what help you can get, you could end up resenting him once baby comes along and you can't find any money for the gas bill or your next packet of nappies.

That said, best laid plans and all that. I saved more than enough for my DC to keep me going until they started school. Life still threw me a curve ball and I got through all that in 12 months. Yet I'm still here, with two happy, healthy children and a great life (although I'd be lying if I said it hasn't been incredibly hard at times). People do find a way of muddling through.

Lots to think about OP. I wish you luck making the right decision.

These were your choices Kentish. No-one is saying they weren't the right choices for you.

It's fair to point out, however, that the consequence of your choices - low earnings, taking on debt, not being able to save any money - were always going to limit your freedom to make other choices.

For those recommending moving further out of London and commuting - yes you will save on housing but it makes it so much harder for childcare (if you need paid childcare that is!). We live 40 mins out of Waterloo and to work 9-5 in the city I drop DD at nursery at 7:30 and pick her up at 18:15. When DD starts school that will add to the cost of needing before and after school care, probably longer hours than after school clubs can provide. Many nurseries don't offer such long hours, nor do most childminders.

FWIW I think YABU to do this without proper budgeting, saving and consideration, but if you can plan well it is doable.

I've been trying to find out information re the visa if you claim. You can claim tax credits and be fine so long as your income is over the minimum but you would be denied the visa if you also claim housing benefit however chances are that by the time you have a baby you would go straight onto universal credits and then the position is less clear as it is just one payment. I would expect the government to try to use it to cut numbers. The issue is the flat, if you owned your own you would be fine but renting is dodgy as you have to be able to provide a home without recourse to public funds. I would seriously suggest trying to get a straight yes or no about uc out of the border agency depending how the government plays it you do run the very real risk of being separated as a family

Try to research uc and find out how it will effect you or if you would even qualify, everyone can tell you have it affected them having to apply for tax credits etc but no one can advise you on this (new claims for working adults are on uc from April 2014 so if you conceive soon you would be one of the first) my concern would be the government wanting to come down hard to look like its doing something about immigration figures.

Chunderella to be honest I was thinking more about the strain it puts on a couple, having to live in unsuitable housing, having a baby with no money, as well as the ongoing uncertainty of DH's immigration status.

I freely admit I have no specialist knowledge of immigration, I was only going by the comments the OP had made and my own experience of how difficult family life can be in substandard housing with no money.

Olgaga sums it up very well.

I just want to add that realistically even if you can manage to budget for the essential expenses like the cost of child care, nappies and formula/BF necessities, and you manage to get all of the essential items free such as a crib, carseat, clothes.
you still need to think about the increase in basic bills.
while on mat leave you will be in all day, using gas/electricity, if your DP decided to be a SAHD that will be a permanent increase.
you will be running your washing machine a lot more, which uses a lot of water, so that bill will go up.

Also when the child is older your food bill will grow a lot.

A child is an extra person, you need to consider the increase in all of your household bills that an extra person will cause

Dahlen:

"I think something has gone badly wrong if, in a Western country that is one of the wealthiest in the world, two parents working on salaries greater than NMW cannot afford to have children. The right to family life is an enshrined right. Children have two biological parents. It should be the case that it is possible to have a child with either one parent working and the other being a SAHP or both parents working and their combined salaries covering childcare. Not necessarily easily, but adequately, without living in poverty. That is not the case, and I think that's a damning indictment on the greed reflected largely in our morally bankrupt housing situation (the main reason for the artificially inflated cost of living in this country). I think it is a crying shame that the OP has fallen foul of this - as have so many other people."

Absolutely. There are horrific problems with wealth distribution in this country. There are too many people in work and struggling.

Within this, people have to make their own happiness, not listen to people on the internet who think you can't have a child because your flat is damp.

Perhaps there are a few people - very few - who will look back on life from their death bed and think "glad I got on the "property ladder" instead of having a child. I would have hated renting when I was 40." Most will look back and think "God bless my children and grand children" and will completely forget the times they wished they could go on holiday not in a tent.

You do see posts on here from mothers who are really struggling, and they are miserable. But if you were to ask most of them, "do you wish you didn't have children so you could pay the bills more easily?" most would say "No! No, I want to be able to pay the bills more easily because I have children, who are at the centre of my life, and it breaks my heart every day that I work every hour and can't give them more".

Question: If all the poor-ish people stop having children because they can't afford a three bedroom detached, who will staff our nuclear power stations in thirty years' time? There will be nuclear meltdowns all over Britain!

I think we need to extensively invest in robotics, as our birth rate will drop massively (birthrate is presently 1.8 children per British woman)!

I would hope homes would be more affordable, and work better paid, before then!

Those changes will only happen with somd massive readjustments to the market. I can see the birth rate taking a massive nosedive in the next few years, and that'll have a big impact on the future.

We will need more migrant workers to keep up the demands of an aging population, needing care homes, rather than school teachers....

The ops near future looks to improve financially so it is not as if they will be bringing a child into a life of poverty.

I would be hesitant for your dh to take more than just a year off paternity leave as a sahd as I don't think you should risk his future career plans.

If a loan from your parents is possible I would also discuss this with them, I know that I would want to help my dc (if I could) if they were in the same situation.

Chunder I didn't! What I said was in response to the OP's question "What's the worst that could happen?"

I responded You end up in emergency housing, on subsistence benefits. Your DH goes back to Brazil.

I did not say "is sent back to Brazil". He might decide for himself he wants to go back!

That probably is the worst that could happen.

The OP herself has said:

Last time we applied for his visa to stay in the UK I had to show I could support us both without benefits.

His visa should be fine as long as I am earning more than £18k a year.

It doesn't take an immigration expert to ascertain that their situation is far from ideal!

NTFT, but I don't think people get that OP can't claim any state help, because, even though it would be her not DH claiming, she is his sponsor in effect, until 2015.
There are new rules regarding spouses/fiances from outside the EU, and one of these is that the UK partner must be earning over 18 k a year, and not claim any state help.
This is very tricky for mixed nationality couples in the North btw, as wages are much lower here.
I know someone who is about to have a baby, and due to being a freelancer is not earning right now.
Therefore her DH is due to be shipped back to his home country, even though he has a job here.
It's totally fucked up.
I know you say you do a niche job OP, but actually, if having a baby is really important to you, I think you need to move out of London, and then you will be able to afford it, doing a different kind of job.
Easier said than done, I know.

The thing is, we won't be in a recession forever. Lots of times in history, people have had to take a chance on having a family when it was less than ideal- my granny had her first when her husband was away at war and might never have returned (who would approve of that now but she didn't care, she just wanted a baby with him even if he died)! Hardly financial stability. People had lots of babies in the 1950's when there was still food rationing and living in a bedsit starting out married life was quite normal; then in the 1970's my parents also had children whilst having very little money and living in a small basement flat, we had very little money in those early years and ate a very strict mealplanned menu whilst mum made our clothes, but in no way were we poor, everyone at my school had parents in pretty similar situations.

Everything Dahlen said is right, it is ridiculous for two middle-income (the op is hardly 'poor') married people to not be able to afford one child in one of the wealthiest of developed countries. The current situation is primarily caused by the over-inflation of the housing market and the commercial exploitation of benefits/tax credits to pay low wages. But, it is partly about expectations- if you expect to own a home and not rent, have a garden, have separate bedrooms for your children, trips, holidays (even modest ones) then you will feel 'poor' if you don't have them but for most of history even professional people simply did not have those things- and whilst I'm sure they worried and fretted about the lack of money, I don't think the evidence is that they were more unhappy generally than us, who have so much more materially but a huge proportion of the population is on anti-depressants and feels cheated and deprived of a 'good' lifestyle becuase undoubtedly living standards have dropped between the boomer generation's peak in older age and our own.

I totally agree with Dahlen and curryeater.
And I don't think you should move to London burbs, I think you should move totally out, like, Sheffield or Bristol.
There are some great cities in the UK to live in with kids.
Agree with making a plan too.