to think 'sod it' and just have a baby anyway?

[KentishWine]

We have no money, we live in a shit flat and I'm about to start a new job. It's a dreadful time to even be thinking about having a baby. But I'm 36 and the proverbial clock has been ticking for the last year. Its so bloody loud it's driving me insane. Our financial/housing situation won't improve until I'm at least 40. Not an ideal time to start trying for a baby (especially as my DM had an early menopause at 43). I want to do it now!

After rent, bills, debts etc, DH and I have about £500 left over each month for everything else. There's no way I can afford to be a SAHM, we'll both have to work FT so FT childcare is our only choice. This costs £1200 a month (London). We're short by £700! As far as I can work out, we're not eligable for tax credits etc as DH is subject to immigration control until 2015 (I'm British, he's Brazillian). We are eligable for £20/month child benefit, but that wouldn't even touch the sides.

It makes me so sad that we're too poor for a baby. By the time we're not too poor, it's likely to be too late. AIBU to just get pregnant and hope for the best? What's the worst that could happen?

Sorry if this has been said before, but your DH may not be entitled to Tax Credits, but YOU are. You can apply for it, and will definitely be accepted because the money will be given to you. It will still be a joint application.

IME, there is never a best time to have a baby. Even when you're doing well financially, there is always something else happening that will stop you from taking the plunge. If you know that you want a child, then get the tax credits sorted out (one phone call) and just do it.

"you will never regret having a baby" such bullshit

There are a few people who do regret having children (I don't know any myself, all my friends seem luckily to have made the right decision including those who actively didn't want them and are happy with that), but I don't know if it is just because of not having a garden/struggling with money in the early years- this is pretty standard stuff around the world. It is a bit of a cruel twist in our lifes that people's fertility is at its peak at a time they are not necessarily the economically best placed, which is why around the world, even in developed countries, people do things like- move to other countries (yes, immigrants!) to get more money/better life/live with relatives to share costs/childcare/work two jobs etc. Or limit child numbers, it's very common in some countries for people to only have one for this reason. But to have none, when you are in a loving relationship and want to have children? I think this kind of self-sacrifice is not called for, and I really think very few people on this thread, including the people so kindly advising the Op not to have kids, will have made it themselves.

If you want a baby have one.

You've earned any benefits coming your way through your tax contributions. I agree with the previous posters, there is never a right time...

I'd like to have my own house before having a child, but if I wait for that I'd be waiting another 2 years and pushing close to my mid thirties before starting. It's not worth the extra risk to my health and to the child of miscarriage and downs syndrome etc, risks that only get higher the longer you leave it. I'm pushing extra hard, paying off debt and getting some savings together so I can start later on this year. I'm using it as motivation to get as many good things in place as possible so I can make the best out of a less than perfect situation.

Perhaps you can start getting some OT, taking on an extra job to pay off some of your debts to give you more disposable income per month. if this is really what you want, set yourself some goals - perhaps:

• clear X amount of debt
• find x amount of extra disposable income
• find more suitable accommodation for you and your family
• take on extra OT or get an extra job for 6 months to get some savings together or clear off debts that will allow you more disposable income per month

Set these for the next 3 months and if you still feel the same way about having a baby, go for it? If you feel that would be too much to take on, maybe you would find having a child whilst holding down a full time job too much?

Have the baby. In 5 years you may be vaguely pissed off with yourself that you are still broke but better that than heartbroken that you can never have a child because it is too late. If you were 26 it would be another story but you have a time limit on you. People manage to raise kids on a pittance so I think it is a case of accepting you are going to potentially have to drastically alter your lifestyle but it will be do-able

LeBFG the children themselves may not want anything expensive, but from what the op says they need 2 incomes and don't have the spare cash for childcare.

She can't give up work because then her dh will loose his spousal visa and if he gives up work she can't afford to improve their situation alone (I read that its his career that should take of soon).

This is more difficult because of the visa issue and the current political climate in the UK. Neither of these is the op's fault, but they wouldn't be the fault of her child either, so it seems unfair to give a child a hard life because the op enjoyed her 20s and did what she wanted with them.

Some of us did consider limits of female fertility and time needed to find a stable home at around 20 and made the call add to what to do in what order then. I'd be much more sympathetic to an op who was saying she is 36 and running out of time if she had a string of men who messed her around, but not trying to create a stable home in the country you intend to love un until your mud-30s by choice is fine if you accept the consequences of that choice.

OP needs to save. The whole thing is probably doable with careful scheming. She's worked for a charity, so I'm guessing she isn't one of those self-indulgent madams who's convinced a baby will fall apart if it wear a second-hand baby-gro. Now, those couples find children very expensive.

Charity shops, NCT sales are good for clothes. Many charity shops have great big baskets of newborn- one year old stuff for 50p each. (After that, the picking get slimmer, as parents aren't given clothes as presents, and toddler wreck their clothes before it's gown out of!)

But, plans can go wrong. We planned carefully. I had bought second-hand newborn stuff before we even conceived. We had children when we wanted just one baby. Twins. So make sure you have loads of wriggle room in your budget.

I think it's a bit daft to delay having a baby or potentially never having one because you don't earn xxx or own a house or can't put them through university .....! For a start, jobs can be lost... gained... redundancy or whatever else. .. house markets can go up and down...graduates are one of the largest groups of the unemployed at the moment - maybe university isn't as great as it was! No point in worrying about it now. If your children want it badly enough they will find a way to go, just like the millions of other poorer dc out there. And maybe having to REALLY want to do it isn't such a bad thing!

Two adults, one with a job and another that is capable of working... you will manage fine.

I have gone from earning 40k plus to becoming a single parent when ex left and working 16 hours a week for minimum wage when I was made redundant from big wage job.... and then I got married again and husband works full time on minimum wage and we have two dc and I dont work at all. Financially we can't afford everything but I am happier than I've been for a long time.

If I had planned to have ds only when I found another well paid job we would never have had him at all.

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this as far as immigration.

My husband supported me for a visa and he didn't have a job, only benefits. You can claim benefits regardless of his visa, you are a citizen of England. They only thing I would mention is if you both leave the country for a holiday or something, when you come back into the country they could ask for proof of you being able to support him if they want to be difficult. They didn't ask me and we didn't have any problem when we went on holiday, but they can be difficult if they want. Also, you won't be able to claim for him on any of your benefits as he doesn't "count" as a person until he has his indefinite leave to remain. This is all assuming your husband has a spousal visa and the laws are similar when I got mine which was 5 years ago.

Hope this helps.

OK, just to recap:

I live in a shit flat and I'm about to start a new job

You aren't able to move from your shit flat with one tiny damp bedroom because you can't afford it - but you might be able to afford a baby?

You're about to start a new job, so you have no protection against unfair dismissal for the first two years of your employment.

Have you checked your employment contract to see whether there is a length of service requirement for the 12 weeks full maternity pay? If so you will only be entitled to SMP at 90% of pay if you have worked for your employer for 26 weeks by the end of the 15th week before your baby is due.

In any case, you will not be able to afford to take more than the most basic time off, and go back to full time work.

At which point, you will either have to pay for childcare, or lose your DH's salary so that he can be a SAHD. Either way you will be much worse off than you are now.

After rent, bills, debts etc, DH and I have about £500 left over each month for everything else.

You have debts and no savings, and are currently unable to save anything from the £500 left over "for everything else" - or you wouldn't still be living in a "shit flat".

You currently walk to work and have no travel expenses, so what you gain in moving to a cheaper area is likely to be offset by the cost of commuting.

DH is subject to immigration control until 2015. His visa should be fine as long as I am earning more than £18k a year.

So if you lost your job, or became ill and unable to work between now and 2015, you would be in breach of your maintenance undertaking and your DH would have to go back to Brazil.

I'm tempted to ask my parents for a loan that is paid back once we're earning more

You're thinking you might take on more debt...

I think you need to sort your finances out first and foremost. Start earning more before you have your baby. Get the debts paid off, and get some money saved.

Then think about having a baby.

What's the worst that could happen?

You end up in emergency housing, on subsistence benefits. Your DH goes back to Brazil.

Mrshoarder I think the main issue here is that the OP didn't know how much childcare would cost in London. If she had £500 round here, it would be more than enough for at least 2/3rds part-time childcare, if not more with childcare vouchers/new scheme. Childcare costs are simply obscene and it is very very sad if we blame a dual income couple for that instead of campaigning to get cheaper childcare or a more equal distribution of maternity/paternity rights.

So- fairly easily solved then OP, you need to pay less in rent or get cheaper childcare. Move out of the centre, have your partner as a SAHD but working in evenings/consultancy (I used to do this) and then, by the time the child is three, they get some funded care and the financial burden eases.

Don't obviously spend any time worrying that you did not consider the limits of female fertility at the age of 20 and not make the right choices. There is a deeply misogynistic strain running through this thread about women and the pattern their lives often takes, particularly because biologically we have the constraint of the time-limited nature of our fertility (marrying a foreigner? not settling down at 20? not got a husband in the City? doing socially worthy work instead of financial planning?) Nothing like this vitriol is ever directed to the millions of dads who drift in and out of their children's live with really very little financial planning at all- yes, people say it's bad, they shouldn't, but they do save their judgement for the women in all these situations.

And, for women, there's no good time to have time out of your careers, and the stats show women's finances suffer after having a child often throughout the rest of their career. Next someone will be on to suggest perhaps women shouldn't work at all if they are only going to have time out and have babies and can't fully contribute to the economic life of this country.

The OP is of course not an exceptional category.

But given what is happening to the benefits system would you actually want to rely on it if you had any choice? Especially with the added visa complication. OP may be able to claim as a UK citizen but I would be willing to bet that they would take into account any money her DP brings to the house when calculating those benefits whilst at the same time excluding him from claiming any.

olgaga has summed it up with her worst case scenario.

But as expat says, life is full of what ifs.

No arguments from me that it is a ridiculous shame that two working adults will struggle to provide for a child.

I'd wait until the end of next year, then if you get pregnant it will be 2015 at the earliest when you have the baby. It also gives you time to settle into your new job and an extra year to pay off the debts.

Our society has the whole kid/career arse backwards IMO.

We need to support women in their younger years in having their babies/studying etc so that they don't feel they need to put it off until mid to late 30s when the clock starts ticking.

Go for it. It will be fine, don't leave it too late.
I'd be looking at moving out of London if possible to a cheaper area. Think about working part time if possible. You will take home more than you expect because you pay less tax the less you earn.
And good luck!

There is a deeply misogynistic strain running through this thread about women and the pattern their lives often takes, particularly because biologically we have the constraint of the time-limited nature of our fertility (marrying a foreigner? not settling down at 20? not got a husband in the City? doing socially worthy work instead of financial planning?)

I 100% agree with this, and you have described my life very well! My 20s were about finding my feet and finding work I enjoyed. I didn't meet the right man because I didn't care about meeting men. I was young and happy. Getting married and having kids was not on the agenda. Now I'm in my 30s it is. I don't think this pattern is unusual.

Sorry op, I haven't read the whole thread but I agree with posters saying that it would be a huge fertility gamble to wait until you're 40.

Financially I've found that it spend a lot less now I have ds and my maternity leave was a very cheap year. We don't eat out much, don't drink, I don't need new clothes for work etc. I really didn't realise how much I was spending on lunches coffees etc when was working. On mat leave I could shop at cheaper places eg lidl, get things on special offer, cook cheap meals from scratch and not pour all our money into m&s ready meals like we did when both working full time. Plus no transport costs.

If I had any advice it would be can you think about moving outside of London? We did and don't regret it one bit. W both still work in London, in the town we live in you can get 4 bed new house with garden for 250k and the commute is 40mins. Transport costs are higher but literally EVERYTHING else is cheaper.nursery costs are £40 per day inc meals compared to £80 in London. If selling your flat is not an option why not consider renting it out and renting somewhere in commuter belt? (Or just move, if you are renting, and rent somewhere outside of London.)

Don't get me wrong, I adore London and love working there, but living there is so ridiculously expensive nd stops you doing so many things you'd like to do. We got pregnant then moved and since we did, we've been really happy. Here our mortgage is much smaller, we can afford to run a car, and I can afford to work part time and put ds in nursery part time.

Would this be an option for you?

I think the OP is very level-headed and has already done a lot of the maths in this situation.
Without speaking for her (OP, correct me if I'm wrong), I reckon she wasn't really asking a black or white, yes or no question, really. It was more of a WWYD? Outside, objective input is always valuable, as you can feel very mired in your situation, and OP has definitely had some good suggestions.

This is not so much a should I/shouldn't I thread as a how can I do this properly (as it were) with the hand I've been dealt thread.

We are pricing up our options for moving out of London, but I don't think we would save much at all. We rent our flat and it's very cheap for the south east. Plus we have zero transport costs. I had not realised childcare was so much cheaper outside the centre, but this is something I am now investigating.

I also think that moving a bit further out is the key. Travel will not eat up all the money you save.

minouminou you're totally correct. I'm just trying to elicit opinion and see how others would cope in this situation. If I genuinely thought that having a baby would mean a life of extreme poverty and a deported husband we would not do it. I don't think this is the case though. I think there must be a way around it. We just need some good planning and some ideas on how to handle the situation.

Fab! Well...you've found out that there's cheaper childcare out there, which is one piece of the puzzle!

I see some frenetic and exciting research for you over the next year!

Clearly you have been young and carefree for a very long time when you suddenly find yourself nearing the end of your thirties, unable to afford anything more than a damp one bed flat, with debts, and unable to neither save nor move up on the accommodation ladder despite expendable income.

Sounds to me you are still carefree (though not so young) and the newest whim is a baby? A living human being? It is not a toy you know! Not something you can put in a closet when you decide the commitment is too much, or too expensive!

Well, Level-headedness seems to have descended overnight (but how long will it last?).

I say, get a puppy.

Read Olgagas post again, she sums it up well. And when your husbands visa restrictions have lifted, and you can relax on the earning front, then think about a baby. Meanwhile, try clear some debts and start saving!