to think 'sod it' and just have a baby anyway?

[KentishWine]

We have no money, we live in a shit flat and I'm about to start a new job. It's a dreadful time to even be thinking about having a baby. But I'm 36 and the proverbial clock has been ticking for the last year. Its so bloody loud it's driving me insane. Our financial/housing situation won't improve until I'm at least 40. Not an ideal time to start trying for a baby (especially as my DM had an early menopause at 43). I want to do it now!

After rent, bills, debts etc, DH and I have about £500 left over each month for everything else. There's no way I can afford to be a SAHM, we'll both have to work FT so FT childcare is our only choice. This costs £1200 a month (London). We're short by £700! As far as I can work out, we're not eligable for tax credits etc as DH is subject to immigration control until 2015 (I'm British, he's Brazillian). We are eligable for £20/month child benefit, but that wouldn't even touch the sides.

It makes me so sad that we're too poor for a baby. By the time we're not too poor, it's likely to be too late. AIBU to just get pregnant and hope for the best? What's the worst that could happen?

TBH, and I don't usually say this, just go for it. Because as DT says, if you leave it much longer it might be too late. Start trying now, if it happens, it does, and you'll find a way to make it work.
SAHD is one option...

I don't think the OP should 'just go for it'.

The reality is right now they have 2 mouths to feed and 2 people able to do jobs.

Throw a baby in and there are 3 mouths to feed and 1 person is hamstrung in their earning potential.

I wouldn't be trusting the state to help me out with this if it goes pear shaped.

Whether it should or not isn't the question, but whether it will.

There is the very real possibility that the OP will end up with a baby, no job and no benefits - how on earth does she pay the rent/eat?

Do you have children Morloth?

I'm sorry to say but I agree with others that have said YABU.

Having a baby is expensive, even if you get all of the baby 'stuff' (cot, pram etc) given to you or from charity shops and somehow manage to find the extra money for child care it still costs a fortune to have a baby.

Nappies are not cheap, even if you get the cheapest 'value' ones, they still go through a huge amount of them. Then there is formula if you can't/don't want to BF.

If you decide to go with the idea of your DH being a SAHD that will save child care costs, but it will also reduce your income even more and as your DH will be home all day your electricity bills will increase massively. In fact this will also be true for when you are on mat leave.

New born babies are expensive, even if you decide to BF you still need to spend money on breast pads and nipple creams, and when you go back to work you will need to express, which means investing in a pump bottles and a steriliser, and even if you can get them cheap there is still the added cost of running the steriliser several times a day and warming the milk (little things I know but they do make a massive difference in the long run).
And if you decide to formula feed there is the cost of the formula, which I believe is nearly £8-£10 a tin now, and they don't last as long as you would think/hope.
Add on top nappies, wipes, creams. If he's colicky you will want gripe water, if he is feeling a little under the weather, infant medications (like calpol). Baby sun cream. Then there is how much more often you will have to run the washing machine.... And they are just off the top of my head.

It is terrible that you are in a situation which means you can't realistically afford to have a baby.
But I do think the 'just do it' attitude is totally wrong given your situation.
You don't have the safety net of benefits to fall back on if something were to go wrong.
I mean what if you lost your job. What if you suffered complications that meant you would be unable to go back to work.
If it came down to if and you did lose your job you may be left with a choice that would keep a home for you and your baby but ruins your DHs visa application.

Realistically your only sensible option is to start saving and plan for a baby when you are in a better financial position and your DH has finished his immigration clearance.

If you are worried about early menopause you would always have some eggs frozen 'just in case'.

Yes and I know you are going to say things like I believe only rich people should have children.

I don't believe anything like that, but I HAVE been the hungry kid with too small shoes and the crying mum who just doesn't know what to do.

What do you suggest the OP does to pay the rent? And not 'she will find a way' an actual concrete idea.

Given the current UK government it would be VERY dangerous to assume any support especially given the OPs partners visa status.

Of course the OP should be able to have her children and she CAN.

Love is not enough, it doesn't fill bellies and it doesn't heat houses and it doesn't buy shoes.

From the outside in, it looks like the UK is devolving in many ways. People ARE having to choose whether they can afford kids or not.

It doesn't matter how it should be, merely how it is.

So back your 'just go for it' with concrete advice.

Hang on Morloth you actually have no idea what I'm going to say. I was just interested to know if you were coming at this as a parent or not.
Personally I'd love an extra two kids (I have two) but we can't afford it at all and don't have the room, so it will never happen.
I don't know how I'd react in the OP's position. I think going through life without having the longed for kid must be one of the greatest losses ever.

Ah sorry - I had assumed the 'do you have kids' question was to make me feel bad about wanting to deny the OP something I have - my apologies I did jump the gun a bit there.

It is horrible, it really is and it must be heartbreaking, it really and truly sucks and the OP has my sympathy.

But once again, sympathy doesn't actually help.

What should happen (IMO) is that the OP has her baby and does the best she can - two people working hard and in love and doing their best are people who should be able to have babies. If they can't cover it then they should be assisted with providing their baby with a warm, safe home and enough to eat by their community/government/society we should look after people. No quibbling from me about tax money or anything like that, I am happy to pay for kids to be looked after regardless of why they need looking after.

But things are not as they should be. And 'just go for it' doesn't acknowledge the reality of kids who simply don't have enough and a society/government that does not care enough about kids who need help.

As I said, I was the kid who didn't have enough, I had love, plenty of love, but often not enough to eat etc.

I have two kids and we are pretty well off, and I lie awake at night worrying about it because I know how hard it can be. I too would like more kids, but I can't provide the 'back up' I would need to feel comfortable with that decision.

Saying 'you will find a way' fails to acknowledge all the mums who haven't been able to find a way, not through lack of care or trying but just because there might not be a way.

I think that people need to remember that the OP and her husband are also not in a normal situation. The worst case scenario with the 'have a baby and it will all work out' is not just that she might be 'really horribly broke, possibly in council housing and on benefits so you are poor but you have a baby' but that when it comes to the time to renew her dh's visa the home office (or whoever it is now) decide that she is not able to support him sufficiently and decline to issue him one.

It might be an outside chance, but it is a possibility (we are an emigrant from the UK and living in that non citizen space is stressful so I am totally sympathetic). OP please do not just 'go for it', plan and research and save and then see if you can make it work. You probably can, it will be about what you are prepared to give up, as it is for most parents.

No problems Morloth. Also I am living outside the UK as an immigrant and I do understand the pressures around visa renewals and the like. Its enormous.

But while this may sound completely simplistic to say, what about all those countries in the world where welfare / government funding doesn't exist? People have families everywhere in the world, it seems to be the thing that sustains folks in some way, despite whatever circumstances you face.

This is an observation by the way, not an assertion of anything. Too tired to do that!

Do it. You'll always regret it otherwise. you'll find a way to cope, most of us do... just start researching all your options thoroughly

People don't always find a way.

Have a look around at the world, there are many children going without.

There is a real possibility in the OP's case, that it does pan out with her DP being denied a visa renewal if she doesn't make enough money to cover him.

OP, would moving to Brazil be an option for making this happen sooner?

I am normally the last person to say don't have a baby if you can't afford it but given your circs, I think I would go for it.

If you conceived tomorrow, you would give birth in march 2014 so 12-18 mnths before DH would be entitled to financial help? How much maternity leave would you get? (Am guessing just statutory if you are starting a new job). Childcare vouchers would help bring down the cost of childcare. Childminders are also generally cheaper than nurseries (for me living just outside of London using a fab childminder saves me approx £25 a day). Also nurseries have an annual pay rise, childminders often don't up their costs every year.

Could you/DH/both have a flexible working pattern that minimises childcare (anyone with children is entitled to apply for it). Dh and I work 'compressed' hours so he does his 5 days worth of hours in 4, I do 4 in 3.5, so only pay for 2.5 days worth of childcare. could you both do 5 days in 4? We stagger our hours too to minimise the time dd's are away from us (which also minimises costs).

Again I am never one to recommend asking for a loan from parents, but given that its hopefully temporary and for good reason, I think I would also ask - they can only say No.

'No recourse to public funds' is a pretty scary thing - it used to worry me so much when we were in the UK.

It means that you really are up shit creek if it goes wrong.

Don't do it.
The fear that is created by having no money is absolutely paralysing and all consuming.
You will not always be able to find away to buy formula if you FF.
Love doesn't pay the rent.

You could end up with credit card debts out of control.

We have food banks in this country and women sell themselves for sex because that is the ONLY way.

expat it's different because for whatever reason, those people are already pregnant and the choice not to carry on with the pregnancy is more complicated. The OP isn't pregnant. She would be making a conscious choice to do this, not end up 'accidentally' in this situation and try and figure it out

I think some of the attitudes on this thread is why so many women in the Uk get accidentally pregnant even though there is access to free contraception and prevention rates are 99%. The rates are way higher than the stats would suggest they should be. If you are accidentally pregnant, no-one judges and you have to get on and make the best of it. Whereas if you are not living in optimal circumstances, and you choose to have a baby, the wrath and judgement descends.

I am not saying the OP should have a baby if they genuinely have no money or no roof over their head, but they have both these things and with a bit of flexible thinking (going abroad- I wasn't joking about going to Brazil, moving out of London, one parent flexi-working as a consultant in their niche area and doing childcare) this is perfectly possible.

Someone else up thread said the biggest predictor of your own fertility (aside from having it tested) is your mother's menopause age. The OP's mum had an early menopause, she may well be in the perimenopause, I wouldn't wait a second before starting to try, but talking with the partner about realistic changes that will make it a better situation for everyone.

I also think some people should take a look at the Spirit Level which says exactly what is happening on this thread- in countries like the UK which are materially wealthy compared with many around the world, it is the constant social comparisons, the division between rich and poor that is making us sick (and literally eaten up with jealousy). I think when a charity worker is berated for not having done a more well-paying job the last few years and told not to have children it's extremely sad and says a lot about what we do value- presumably if she'd come on and said her husband works in the City, it would have been ok then:(

I think it is worth making comparisons, not with very poor countries, but with other European countries in which living in a flat, not having a garden, perhaps living in a one-bed with a small baby is not considered some type of neglect or poor judgement, but normal everyday life.

As for the poster who thinks a person wanting to have a baby in a loving relationship is somehow a judgement on her childless friends- words fail me!

My mother went through an early menopause at 43 but i'm 44 with a 18 month old, its a predictor nothing more.

People talking about claiming tax credits are probably giving you the wrong information because you shouldn't qualify as you will come under universal credit and you can bet your life that they will exclude visa applications if claiming. Possible uc won't be rolled out across the board but i think they will push ahead with it.

Go back to your budget and redo it for the future, babies are not expensive but toddlers upwards are, food, clothes shoes toys etc. I'd allow the same for a child as you would for yourself, add in childcare costs and see what you need to do to make the budget work then make it happen.

When does your spouse get his ILR?

This person isn't living in a homeless hostel.

Morloth, what ifs are just that.

I know expat but I would say it would be safe to assume that the OP will be getting zero help from the government in the UK.

I believe she needs to proceed on that assumption and get a plan together, it might still go pear shaped but it has got to be better than having a baby and just hoping for the best.

I am extraordinarily risk averse though - my back up plans have back up plans!

Newborns are NOT expensive. If you buy second hand and take pass-me-downs and don't fall into the gotta-buy-every-new-gimmick you'll get by on very little. Remember, relatives love buying clothes too.

The only real expense is nappies, but even these can be bought bulk on amazon deals (even cheaper, reusables bought second hand - but not for everyone I realise). Even my 2yo's only real expense at the minute is books as I have to buy online as secondhand english books are not available (overseas). His clothes come from my sister (who were passed onto her from a friend).

I don't envisage any great expense until they are asking for mobile phones and the like. For the moment, really cheap presents like a spinning top or sparkly windmill keep them happy for hours.

"you will never regret having a baby" such bullshit

You could do it. Dp becomes sahd during the day and works a few evenings a week in a pub / bar etc. No childcare costs then. Of course that's assuming he could find something.

If two able-bodied employable and employed married adults "can't afford" to have children, according to some of you warbling about university fees, etc, then that's practically eugenics. Vile.

I would say it would be safe to assume that the OP will be getting zero help from the government in the UK.

Why would you say this? You would be wrong. The OP is entitled already to several forms of benefit and tax credit. In a few years (before her child would be starting school), her DH will most likely have his settlement visa and there will be no question about benefits eligibility.

Of course, the government is stripping away the help available to all parents - but the OP is not in an exceptional category in this regard.

I think people are really getting carried away and exaggerating the "dire" financial circumstances of the OP. It would be a shame if this couple, both earning an income and with good prospects and reason to expect a continuing future income, with no major debt issues (based on OP's reported situation) and with a £500/month cushion at present - let other people put them off from having a child. Ridiculous.

OP - I haven't read the thread through but just wanted to say this....

You will never regret having a baby. x