to think 'sod it' and just have a baby anyway?

[KentishWine]

We have no money, we live in a shit flat and I'm about to start a new job. It's a dreadful time to even be thinking about having a baby. But I'm 36 and the proverbial clock has been ticking for the last year. Its so bloody loud it's driving me insane. Our financial/housing situation won't improve until I'm at least 40. Not an ideal time to start trying for a baby (especially as my DM had an early menopause at 43). I want to do it now!

After rent, bills, debts etc, DH and I have about £500 left over each month for everything else. There's no way I can afford to be a SAHM, we'll both have to work FT so FT childcare is our only choice. This costs £1200 a month (London). We're short by £700! As far as I can work out, we're not eligable for tax credits etc as DH is subject to immigration control until 2015 (I'm British, he's Brazillian). We are eligable for £20/month child benefit, but that wouldn't even touch the sides.

It makes me so sad that we're too poor for a baby. By the time we're not too poor, it's likely to be too late. AIBU to just get pregnant and hope for the best? What's the worst that could happen?

How would your partner feel about staying home some of the week and working around childcare hours? Or part-time childcare?

I think one of the key things here is: are you both on board that this will be hard, require sacrifice (of all luxuries like coffees out, lunches, trips abroad, everything non-essential) for a few years? Would you be prepared to work extra jobs/one of you away/change careers for a better paid one to have a child?

If you are strong as a couple, and flexible in your thinking, this is all possible. If you have few life options, are very rigid in what you want (so career progess or having the perfect job is out the window for a few years), and have few prospects (e.g. no capacity to earn much money) then this set of circumstances could indeed be difficult.

Find out when your husband will get ILR as well and work backwards for that. If you had to live separately for a while (this was threatened for me when I was pregnant as my husband did lose his work visa during that time and might have had to return home and reapply from there) could you do that, even if undesriable? Do you have any support around you (not just family, but friends, other relatives)?

I would stack up your resources and look at what you have got. Although I don't think you should delay having a baby whatsoever, I think you need to get planning and talking about the 'what ifs' and create more than one plan for how this is going to work.

We just need some good planning and some ideas on how to handle the situation.

Yes - some good financial planning, including getting all debts paid off, moving, and saving everything you can for the next two years.

Making money as tight as possible, saving all your spare cash, foregoing luxuries - it'll give you a better idea of what life will be like when you have the expense of raising a child.

Do take a look at those websites I linked to above.

But Quint, if they take living in London out of the equation, that'll remove a lot of pressure.

And- whilst I agree with lots of posters that women don't think about settling down in their twenties, I don't see many men in their twenties trying to persuade them to, either. I think that it is often not women driving the carefree lifestyle, but the men who don't want to marry til late-thirties/even early forties, if the ones my single friends meet on dating websites are anything to go by (and reading the Relationship board here). You can't say women really have made a choice not to marry and have babies til their late-thirties- this has become the social norm because there is no taboo on sex outside of marriage. Sadldy for women, they are then more heavily penalised for it because of biology and socially castigated for not having planned it better.

Remove some, add others, if you still need to work in London. OP said herself that this is the only place they could work.

You must investigate monthly rail travel into London, be prepared for hours on a packed train, early up and late home, etc.

I know, Mumsy. I remember an old male chum blithely telling us that he didn't fancy kids until he was around 40 or so. His partner was about a year older than him. So, that's ok, then.....

I dont get why not settling down should have to equate not building up a sound living environment, getting on the property ladder, and making savings, rather than accumulating debts.

These are two totally different things! I know plenty of single women with careers, who own their own home, have a car, savings, go on fab holidays. You dont need to live like a student and never build up a life for yourself just because you are not settling down with a man and a baby!

Just about anywhere in the South East which has a good commute to London is expensive! Not as expensive as London, obviously.

You can rent reasonably cheaply in (say) Gravesend and other Medway towns, but your season ticket will be about £3,000pa.

I think the OP should really really look at jobs outside London. I know, it's a niche area blah blah, but unless it's suddenly going to kick in financially, it isn't going to get better for years. I used to live in London, I love London and would probably do my career a power of good by moving there, but I'm not giving up the house and nice schools I have here, thanks! I think the Op needs to really think about whether this 'all these jobs are in London' is really true- charities are also based in Bristol, Birmingham etc. Lots of companies have moved to regional offices (e.g Met office, even BBC) precisely because of living costs.

That's what I mean about flexible thinking- you can't fix on 'we have to live in London in the centre, our lives are going to be crap' - you have to start thinking creatively about how you could reduce outgoings/get more money in- and changing location/job is a tried and trusted one (or even change location- how much would you get paid in Brazil!)

"Clearly you have been young and carefree for a very long time when you suddenly find yourself nearing the end of your thirties, unable to afford anything more than a damp one bed flat, with debts, and unable to neither save nor move up on the accommodation ladder despite expendable income."

To me this sums up the snottily materialistic, mindlessly quasi-moralistic ("quasi"- and mindless, because relating to things that are actually morally neutral, but treating them as things that have ethical value) attitude that I find most obnoxious about mumsnet, and increasingly, the culture at large. It is a sly and stupid way of allowing oneself to despise people instead of thinking empathetically. It's a form of ethical, social, and emotional laziness and selfishness, and it is vile.

The op has been working for a charity, and abroad, which are not the best ways to accumulate cash or property. This doesn't make her in any way inadequate or feckless. There is nothing morally reprehensible about not owning a mansion at the age of 36, or, indeed, any age. Nor is there about not wanting children the second you turn 21. And so the flat is "damp" - and this is a stick to beat the OP with! Surely that is the landlord's fault, if anyone's.

I would not have much sympathy for the OP if she were wondering about, for instance, getting a brand new car despite those life choices. No, people who work for charities have made the decision that they have second hand cars, if they have one at all. (as by extension have I - my DP works for charities)
But - not to have a CHILD? Are you serious?

The biggest pressure's deffo money, though.
OP, are there def no jobs like yours in, say, Oxford?

I dont get why not settling down should have to equate not building up a sound living environment, getting on the property ladder, and making savings, rather than accumulating debts.

I agree - surely the whole point about women having careers is that you work towards financial independence?

Oh, I missed that the op works in the charitable sector.

Good Luck ever earning a decent salary!

Can your skills be transferred into the private sector? Or try find work with more high profile organizations?

Quint- I would agree, except the poster works for a charity in London, with the best will in the world, getting on the property ladder won't have been an option, or indeed that much of a necessity when 25. At 35 it is, it's just that we have been seduced by the idea we all have as much time in the world as we need, and it's not true, and a lot of British men's desire to string out their single/batchelor lifestyle well into their late thirties/early forties really doesn't help change this.

In my husband's country, getting settled down/having a family will be very much on the mind of the 30 year old men you meet, whereas most of my friends at 30 were dating UK boy/men who still wanted to meet up with the lads and seemed to think settling down was some type of endurance where you held out as long as possible, time-wise (scuppering their partner's fertility in the process).

curryeater I completely agree with you.

curryeater, it is not necessary to twist having decent accommodation into "living in a mansion". The opposite of one bed damp flat is not necessarily a mansion.

Just a thought which I don't think has been mentioned... could you look into getting your hormone levels tested to see if you are likely to heading for early menopause?

Obviously this is no guaranteed indicator of your ability to conceive, but if the results are no worse than average for your age it might take the pressure off a bit.

It might then be worth thinking, 'OK, we'll wait until the residency is granted' and in the meantime maybe one or both of you could get a second job to enable you to clear some debt/save some money.

Also being devil's advocate, how would you cope if baby had issues and you were unable to tho back to work? Hopefully not likely but you would be in a much more precarious position than most if it did happen.

Actually, conversely, moving further out of london but near a stop on a 'fast' service into London can give you a commute that's under an hour while costing less for housing than being closer into the outskirts of london.

I'd start by working out which train station you need to come into for the best links to your office, then look at stations an hour out. move now, so you can start saving the difference.

Save as much as possible, do'nt get pregnant until you've been at your new job long enough to be entitled to any enhanced materntiy package, and if yours is the wage that matters for your DH's visa, consider the possibilty of him taking on some of your mat leave.

It would be worth doing your research about which benefits you would be entitled to claim and if you can claim, not your DH. Childcare vouchers can be bought by both parents, so again, find out if you can if you've been there for a set amount of time.

I agree - surely the whole point about women having careers is that you work towards financial independence?- so women who can't afford £1200 nursery fees after their rent, bills and everything else are just financially rubbish and shouldn't have children? The only thing that would give that degree of financial independence to a woman would be working in the City, lawyer, medicine, a few other professions (not mine, for sure). Weirdly, women in these high-paid professional sectors actually have fewer children, i'm sure I can't think why money obsessed long work hours culture in which you have to sacrified your soul and any hope of a family life

snottily materialistic, mindlessly quasi-moralistic ("quasi"- and mindless, because relating to things that are actually morally neutral, but treating them as things that have ethical value) attitude that I find most obnoxious about mumsnet

I disagree. I'm afraid if you fanny around in a daze during what are the 15 best years of your working life not earning very much, you will never achieve a comfortable life, let alone financial independence, savings, secure housing, a pension etc.

Fanny around if you want to, but it's a bit foolish to turn around in your late thirties and realise you don't have the money to do what you most want and then wonder (too late) what you can do about it short of a lottery win.

This didn't happen to me because I never wanted any child of mine to have the childhood I had. All those years of grinding financial hardship, insecurity, instability, moving from place to place, waiting for "something to turn up", the physical and emotional toll it took on both parents and children.

Unless you're rich and privileged, it's foolish to imagine you'll wake up one day and all will be well, and you'll be able to afford the life you want as if by magic.

Bromley is an option. Fast track to Victoria.

In defence of the Op, I too do a job I could not do outside of London (ditto my dh) and can see how finding work somewhere else isn't an option. But moving is. As the poster above has said, transport will be 3000 per annum minimum in most commuter towns. Rental costs will be much lower, as wil all other living costs. And your quality of life will be so much better, I don't mean to criticise anyone bringing up children in London as that has lots of offer too, but for me personally a backyard lawn, plenty of living space and friendly neighbours seemed important for little ones.

Frankly, if you are currently renting then you are footloose and fancy free as far as property is concerned - you can move any time you want.

We did the oh sod it thing and got pregnant, we found it definitely accelerated our rather lackadaisical research and property search and by the timer I was 30 weeks we were moving in! So it worked for us but op the decision is for you and your dh to make.

Quintissential: " it is not necessary to twist having decent accommodation into "living in a mansion". The opposite of one bed damp flat is not necessarily a mansion." No, but in order to a. live somewhere reasonably nice in london, b. "get on the property ladder" in london, you do need to have what would have been the price of a mansion, in most times up to the present, relative to average salaries.

A "normal" flat or house is cripplingly expensive in the SE. (I am always noticing my family from the NW and, in the case of my parents, from the 20th century, trying to disguise their horror and pity at what we can afford / what we are paying for it.) If the OP were in debt on paying rent to have one (no chance of buying one) just how much would she be slated then?

To me, though, Everlong, that statement says that OP is realistic about where they are now. She knows it's not ideal and that it needs changing stat!
She's at the start of this journey, and has firm expectations that will prove to be obstructive. Thankfully, she seems ready to recalibrate them.