To think that if you will not even look look at this pie chart regarding the welfare spend from last year you have no right to comment?

[MadameDefarge]

THE FACTS

I will now try and find a breakdown of figures of those on long term benefit JSA/IB etc.

Then perhaps we could all have a reasonable discussion.

Yellow, i do understand that, and I don't think that people in ordinary jobs shouldn't have families.

But I do think that there are a lot of ordinary, unskilled jobs that pay more than NMW, and once you consider housing subsidies and wage subsidies, people should be able to have children without child tax credits if they are a family with two parents capable of work. Childcare could be subsidised as well without the need for child tax credits.

thanks for that william. My case might be a single one, but it has its merits I believe, in the argument in general. I haven't seen huge amounts of emoting. I have offered my circumstances simply as an example. Presumably I cannot comment unless I am sufficiently removed from the reality of govt policy.

Cloud. please provide data. That was my point on this thread. lets stick to data. not suppositions or imagings or prejudices.

Are we not splitting hairs here? It is both.

Well, yes, we are. But I was replying to Parsing, and I read her post to mean that it is a benefit that can only be claimed by people who are out of work. Until this thread, I didn't know either way, hence my confusion.

I know this is just a small largely irrelevant input into the wider discussion...but
My neighbours are all retired professionals. 3 of 4 households are away in their winter holiday homes in warmer climes at present. All have theircentral heating on for longer a day while absent than I can afford while at home with young children. All receive winter fuel allowance and have employer pensions in excess of 30k.
Winter fuel allowance with a pension of 60k in one case. Heating an unoccupied house for 6 hours.
While on the other side of working life, No increase in child benefit and some children I see through my social work areliving
in freezing cold houses, and already struggling with costs of living while on benefits.
I know this is not necessarily the norm I know all ages struggle but to restrict universal benefits to families and not pensioners is just ridiculous.

Clouds - ok, now you just sound silly, what 'should' be affordable and what factually is affordable are not the same thing.

What are these fictional 'wage subsidies' and 'housing subsidies' to which you refer? I am talking about families not in receipt of HB and there are no 'wage subsidies' except CTC which you say people should not receive anyway. Again your posts leave me

I think that scenario is quite common baby lily. If you look at who owns the wealth in this country isn't something like 60-70% of the wealth in this country sitting with those age 50/55 and over.

My stats may be wrong - I couldn't find a link - but surely that is reason alone to reduce the pension bill. Instead lets keep Cruises in business but keep child poverty. Nice.

Yes, you are pretty much saying that people who earn a low wage shouldn't have children.

Is that what you are saying Clouds?

So, only the well off should have children?

So what about disabled people? if they can not work are they not allowed children either?

Low wage earners do a lot of jobs that other people would turn their noses up to.
I work in retail, i earn less than 10k work 30hrs over 3 days because we can not afford childcare for 2 x DC

We rent a 3 bed house that was acutually cheaper than a 2 bed ( we know why now, because it has a damp problem that was convieniently not mentioned )
We claim HB for less than a 3rd of the total rent.

My DH works 40 hrs over 4 days and takes home less than 15k

When we had just DS we were earning over 30k between us, but shite happens, DH's overtime got cut, i took a demotion and decrease in wages to get the hours and days i needed that suited my family's needs and we ended up earning a lot less than before.

Before you go on, we tried to find childcare for DS who needs wrap around care ( i start shifts at 5am, DH at 7am ) and DD 8months monday to friday but there was nothing available, no nurserys to pick up and drop off for school, no childminders who could start that early either, or do both children.

It was either take the job as it stood, or i would of had to quit and go on JSA.
So i took the hit, and have kept in mind it won't be forever, that when they are both at school i can try to find 1 childcare provider, or i may of had other options turn up.

We still earn more than what my PIL did like for like at the same age, but can not get a mortgage to even buy a studio apartment as the ratio between wages and the like are now not 3 x average salary, but 6.

So despite me and DH working very hard and not seeing each other except on cross overs i find it unfathomable that you think people like us shouldn't have children, that my babies shouldn't be here.

CTC does not encourage me or DH to have more, it barely helps to feed or clothe our 2, we are grateful for it, but would much rather prefer a livable wage and reasonable rent.

I am talking about families not in receipt of HB and there are no 'wage subsidies' except CTC which you say people should not receive anyway. Again your posts leave me

I wasn't aware you were talking about families that don't get HB. As we had discussed the cost of housing, I wasn't talking about families that don't get HB. The wage subsidies I was referring to would be working tax credits, which actually do exist, and I do support, albeit regretfully.

why on earth would you assume CTC is linked to housing benefit?

Omg clouds, seriously ??
You are saying disabled people shouldn't have children !!!

So you believe those that are disabled should work, or if they are not able to, that they shouldn't need ctc?!

OTT, from your explanation if your situation, it appears that you are taking this personally. There is no need to, you don't have to justify yourself to me.

Even if you did, you say you had an income of £30k when you had your first child. That is not a low wage and should be enough to have a child with. If shit happens in life, then that is exactly what the welfare state is for, and I support that!

I never said only the well off should have children.

But I do think that people who can't afford to have children (as in can't even give them the basics without benefits) shouldn't have them. I'm aware that is disagreed with by many on MN, but it is plain common sense to me.

I did not say that people who earn a low wage shouldn't have children either. I think low wages have to be subsided, housing has to be subsided and childcare has to be subsidised. But children shouldn't be.

Omg clouds, seriously ??
You are saying disabled people shouldn't have children !!!

No, I didn't say that.

If you are going to post accusations like that, at least read what I have fucking written!

Clouds, please answer whether you thought CTC was linked to HB. leave my situation out of it.

Upthread I said:

Clouds - you are still making no sense!

HB is only available to those on very low incomes. Many people who earn more than the HB threshold still struggle to afford to pay for their essential costs. One of the biggest factors is the massive rise in housing costs. Wages have not kept up.

So not sure how you missed that.

pumpkin. clouds did not say that. you might infer it from her posts but she did not say that.

And those things things you think can be subsidised do subsidise children. It does seem as if you are focussed on CTC for some reason.

why on earth would you assume CTC is linked to housing benefit?

I didn't assume that at all.

Perhaps tonight is one of those nights where I only make sense in my own head, because I genuinely don't know what made you think I did. Nor do I know why you have felt the need to tell me to leave your situation out of it.

I either need a lot less wine, or a lot more!

No need to swear clouds, im sorry that i misread your post.

Ah. well. I think if you reread tomorrow you will see where the misapprehension occurs. You said you were only talking about people on hb. No worries.

It does seem as if you are focussed on CTC for some reason.

Perhaps because that's what I talked about in my first post on the thread and I kept getting replied to.

Yellow, I did read that, but I didn't realise that meant I wasn't allowed to refer to HB recipients in my reply. Either way, I still don't think people should have children if they can't afford to pay for them.

Shit happens in life. I work and I claim CTC, WTC, HB, and CTB.

Even if my xp were to pay child maintenance, it wouldn't be enough to substitute my CTC, or indeed any of the other govt top ups I receive, except CTB.

Even though you have expressed your wish that absent fathers were made to support their children, which I wholeheartedly agree with, in many cases, even if you could get the fathers who had previously not paid child support to pay, it wouldn't cover the cost of the CTC.

If I didn't have the CTC, I wouldn't be able to afford the basics for my child.
What is the alternative?

No need to swear clouds, im sorry that i misread your post.

Apology accepted. The swearing was just because its not very nice to be accused of having an attitude as abhorrent as that.

Yes well too much wine might explain things, I genuinely have no idea where you are coming from.

I dont think there is any virtue in picking over each others posts. Cloud has said she didnt mean that. lets let it go for the moment.