To think that if you will not even look look at this pie chart regarding the welfare spend from last year you have no right to comment?

[MadameDefarge]

THE FACTS

I will now try and find a breakdown of figures of those on long term benefit JSA/IB etc.

Then perhaps we could all have a reasonable discussion.

Even with graphs they still dont get it

For example. Where I live (a deprive area of E London becoming more and more gentrified). When I moved here from just up the road rent was not precisely affordable but ok. ds and I lived in a one bed above the business I started. my rent was £700 a month. to get the same now I would have to pay over £1100. my boy is at school. this is his home. To rent a two bed now would cost me over £1300 per month minimum. So my dilemma is.. Where do I get a job that pays me at least £50,000 a year it would cost to pay all the rent bills CT etc? Oh, I could move, but this is our home. ds in a good school and thriving. how far do you want to break up communities because only the well paid can afford even the most deprived areas in London? hm?

I accept that housing is expensive, yes, so if we subsidise housing with HB, why do we also need child tax credits?

I think we expect too much out of housing anyway nowadays. I'm in my early thirties and an only child, but many of my friends and family grew up sharing a room with one, two and occasionally three, siblings right up until they left home. They are all fully functioning adults now with happy families and careers, sharing a room hasn't done them any harm. I don't see why people feel the need to give their children a room each when they get to a certain age, it's just not necessary. If people want to do that, they need to be able to afford it from their own money, not many that is given to them by the state. Obviously, I don't include families that have reasons to need separate rooms for their children because of illness or disability in this opinion.

I know Air. But keep on plugging it. It might sink in. I think a graph a week might work here!

Amber, I think this is about pensioners though because the govt is for whatever reason (promises, votes) protecting them and trying to find cuts from smaller pieces of the pie.

Quite frankly I'm not sure why the generational war hasn't begun yet! On one side ageing baby boomers with assets and properties and a life of easy access to education and employment and final salary company pensions with high expectations of care and old age... Looking down on the next generation of kids who are 40 and still in rental properties, working 24 hours/day stuck to a blackberry for work, both parents working, juggling child care, not able to get by and looking forward to a nonexistent pension when the money dries up. So when will the revolution begin?

Lets start by means testing pensions so people like my dad who lives in Chelsea and has 3 company pensions don't get a state pension. Easy.

I agree the govt needs to spend more time recouping income from tax dodgers and less time trying to make little, expensive cuts to welfare.

Yet I also think so many of the arguments on MN ate based on ideology and a bit pie in the sky. The govt severely over spends. Spending must be cut so surely the welfare bill, like all others, must be reduced?

I can tell you I need CTC to feed and clothe my ds because I simply cant pay for everything I need to pay for (even on ESA) that I have to pay for. My rent is £310 a week. HB capped at £290 here. Now have to pay portion of CT also. Also have to pay utility bills. roughly £40 pw. that is before we even eat. its not the life of riley I assure you.

but why give the rich a tax break of 10% at the same time?

I dont think people living in a fair and equitable society who fall on hard times are scrounging. I think they need our help.

I don't think anyone legally claiming should be vilified, even if they are exploiting the system. It's people's job to (legally) make the most of the opportunities available to them. If some aspect of the social security system is stupid, people should exploit it, until it's fixed.

I just don't see why this particular (and relatively small) part of government spending is getting so violently cut in the 7th biggest economy in the world.

I think I read yesterday that the benefits bill is still going up, aren't the cuts just reducing the rate of growth?

the welfare bill is going up because the economy is not growing. Wonder why that is.

Clouds - you are still making no sense!

HB is only available to those on very low incomes. Many people who earn more than the HB threshold still struggle to afford to pay for their essential costs. One of the biggest factors is the massive rise in housing costs. Wages have not kept up.

I might be wrong, apologies if so, but isn't ESA a payment made to people living with illness or disability?

Yes. what is your point? It is an unemployment benefit nevertheless.

Um it's not like the govt can wave a magic wand and get the economy revved up again! fGS! Lets ask the goby to make sure the weather is sunny tmrw too!

Sorry.... Lets ask the govt....

william, I think you will find the majority of political, er discourse, at the moment surrounds the inability of the govt t stimulate growth with their current economic policies.

I realise that Yellow. But if a persons housing is subsidised, and their wages are subsidised through working tax credits, and that person still can't afford to meet their essential costs without child tax credits, then the only conclusion to come to is that they can't afford to have children.

being facetious without reference to govt policies is just plain silly.

cheers cloud. Shall I put ds up for adoption? not too sure how many folks want a 12 year old. but I could give it a try.

The state pension is dependent upon contributions. Pension credit is a means tested benefit which tops up state pension for those without a private pension or a very small private pension and limited savings. A lot of the welfare payments that are paid out now have nothing to do with what people have or haven't contributed to the system. So the state pension is not really comparable with other benefits. That's my opinion.

Or put him into care? that wont cost much. And Im sure he would simply thrive on it.

Madame, my point is that if people with illnesses and disabilities that make them unable to work were adequately supported, then you would not be in a position where you need child tax credits.

You would either be able to work, and if you can't, then you would be supported because of the reason that you can't work.

There wouldn't be a need for child tax credits which just encourage people to have children they cannot provide for on their own.

Remember that wealthy pensioners will be paying tax. So, many are being taxed on the money they saved from earnings that were already taxed.

One problem is that the recent cutbacks means that many public workers have taken early retirement, to grab their pension while they can, understandably, so will now be on their not always generous but index-linked pensions for decades to come.

Yes, of course welfare bill is still rising because number of pensioners in receipt of state pension is growing all the time, which was the point of the whole thread in the first place.

X posted.

And Madame I think you'll find that many countries are in a depression in our global economy. How much do people expect the govt to 'stimulate' the economy? Tories believe that keeping money and business in the country is one way hence, I suppose, the reason for tax breaks for businesses. But then people bark that such policies are elitist.

I don't think the answer is more govt spending or giving more money to people to increase disposable income. A bonkers false economy.