To think that if you will not even look look at this pie chart regarding the welfare spend from last year you have no right to comment?

[MadameDefarge]

THE FACTS

I will now try and find a breakdown of figures of those on long term benefit JSA/IB etc.

Then perhaps we could all have a reasonable discussion.

FWIW I don't know a single benefit "scrounger", but virtually everyone I know tweaks their tax bill.

I don't even know anyone on benefits, but I have always paid every penny of tax I legally owe.

Actually, not sure if by "scrounger" you mean someone commiting fraud or someone legally claiming everything they can, and possibly using some creativity to exploit any grey areas?

I have no problem with any claiming the maximum the benefits system will pay out, or avoiding tax as far as possible, as long as in both cases they are at least arguably within the law.

They are both legally responding to economic incentives, which is what people are expected to do. Money received/paid to the government is a matter of law, not morality. If we don't like the way either claimants or taxpayers are behaving, then change the law, don't start a witch-hunt.

My DM (now deceased)and her elderly neighbours considered themselves better off than they'd ever been - living in housing assoc bungalow's for the elderly and having their pension and, usually a bit of deceased husband's small pension and some got disability allowance. Compared to their earlier life on a their DH's low workman's wage they were/are very comfortable!

Also, everyone left school at 14 when these oldies were young and went straight into a job so it wasn't seen as a hardship in particular. They were luckier than many kids today with no jobs. Life doesn't seem so hard if it is the same life for everyone in your circle.

But I think that there is an anomoly which could be corrected, unless I misunderstand it. I had a neighbour who was on disablilty and mobility allowance (though could walk the dog slowly) who recently reached retirement age. Apparently that allowance, if you are receiving it before you reach pensionable age continues until death.
Also met another pensioner recently (who can do cartwheels, by the way) who also still gets a disability allowance plus her pension.
If you become eligible for disability allowance after the pension age you are not entitled to it, only if it happens before
So it seems unreasonable that those on it stay on it forever.

Perhaps these receivers are or have been checked recently as being eligible, I wouldn't ask so don't know. But if they haven't been this seems an unfair arrangement. I can't see why you need it only if you had the problem before 60 but not after.

By all means correct me if I have this wrong.

They have chosen to demonise ALL benefit claimants as scroungers.

Except pensioners. Which does of course further feed into their sense of being more entitled than everyone else.

Clouds - if the people claiming benefits are not 'scroungers' then on what grounds do you support the reforms? What do you mean by 'too generous'? If people are genuinely too ill to work, rather than pretending to be too ill to work, how do you think they should live other than through support?

If you don't care about he benefits bill, then why contribute to a discussion about it?

It's not clear to me that that is the sole/main topic of discussion.

I don't think I know any pensioners who feel entitled to anything other than a pension to ensure they can live in relative comfort and dignity.

Well it sort of is Chris, but I would never say you cant contribute. Not the spirit of MN. All sorts of interesting stuff comes out of threads, whether directly addressing the OP or not.

I don't think I know any pensioners who feel entitled to anything other than a pension to ensure they can live in relative comfort and dignity.

Well I know plenty who seem to view the tax and NI they've paid over the years as some sort of personal savings pot and they expect it to be paid back in full over retirement (presumably they think all the government services they've benefited from over the years were run by volunteers).

Older pensioners (old enough to remember WWII) tend to be ok, its the more recent ones who seem to have an entitlement complex..

Yellow, people who are too ill or disabled to work deserve more help as far as I'm concerned, both financially and with other services.

I don't think benefits for people with disabilities are too generous.

I think child tax credits are ridiculously generous and they need to go. I appreciate they sometimes pay for childcare, which I support fully, but I think people can be supported with childcare in a more efficient way than child tax credits. The child tax credits that are paid just to support children, or SAHPs, just shouldn't need to exist. People should not be having children they cannot afford to support themselves. While I also think that we have a massive problem with housing and there is a clear need for people to have subsidised housing, I don't think that we should be subsidising housing so that people can have children that they don't earn enough to support.

Children should be supported by their parents except in temporary extreme circumstances, or where there are disabilities.

I think our society would be a much better one if government put as much money as they spend on CTCs into making sure that absent parents pay for the children they created, at the same time as enabling parents to work.

Any policies (especially the ill thought out back-of-fag-packet ones we are now seeing) which lead to an even less equitable society are an embarrassing and costly mistake.

I think the child benefit cuts are an abomination. In general I prefer universal benefits, but if they are going to restrict child benefit then they should cancel it altogether and enhance the child element of income support/tax credits for those poor enough to qualify.

However I like what I know about UC. The benefits cap I have no strong feelings about. The "bedroom tax" I slightly like.

Cloud. that is indeed a reasonable position. But the government is not pushing that viewpoint. They have chosen to demonise ALL benefit claimants as scroungers

I don't think many people give any government enough credit to believe everything they say, even when they are members of the ruling party.

I don't agree with the governments way of sparking debate about the welfare system amongst the general public, but I do agree that they had to do that somehow.

I was using the term "scrounger" ironically Chris. I dont think people living in a fair and equitable society who fall on hard times are scrounging. I think they need our help.

I just don't see why this particular (and relatively small) part of government spending is getting so violently cut in the 7th biggest economy in the world.

Frankly I find it perverse. And mean.

It matters because the Mail and Jeremy Kyle and fuck knows what else convince hoards of people that the cuts are necessary to stop the scum of the earth from squandering all our cash.

Yes, we haven't got any money, yes we need to reform, yes there is some abuse of the system. But to incite hatred of a section of society for a political aim is abhorrent in my book. But then they don't vote tory and lots of older people do.

Lets list the numbers of children people have, and list their claims for welfare payments, often including those towards the maintenance of disabled children I'm sure they have them on purpose and demonise people struggling to care for their families. Making Philpott the poster boy for this just sickens me.

I agree with Clouds about tax credits, unfortunately a lot of working age benefits (including housing benefit) are a government sticking plaster to compensate for absurd housing costs. Look at private rental prices in London - over £1k/m for some horrible small flat in a dodgy location.

If the government went on a large scale building spree to create a healthy supply of quality social housing a lot of inequalities and need for working people to claim benefits would disappear.

I think lots here are missing the point hugely.

This isn't about pensioners, or what a 'drain' they are through the welfare bill.

When someone says 'who is draining society via benefits' the image that pops into the uninformed mind is of a young and able person....or of someone skipping along laughing while pretending to have a bad back.

That is not the reality as people like the above make up a small percentage of the welfare bill, that is just what people are being fed by a right wing media.

Ok clouds, thanks for explaining but your view just seems even more weird now!

Thank you Amber. It is indeed not about pensioners at all.

Imo even if there was no child benefits there would still be children. The poor will still have children, they will be in rags or homeless, ill and half starved (like in the 300bc or 1800's) but people will have children.

In Africa people still have children even with out the NHS and benefits and in famins.

There will just be a lot of unhappy, unhealthy people in the uk, with more petty crime and overcrowding.

Why is that Yellow?

" there are astroturfers about trying to undermine anyone who has a left wing opinion. They are nasty and cruel. They have pushed one poster from these boards"

From my perusal of these boards, the prevailing opinion on pretty much everything seems to be left wing? Particularly the benefits/welfare question. If there are truly nasty and cruel sentiments expressed, they seem to be directed towards anyone with a "right wing" opinion.

You only have to read Jennifer Worth's books (call the midwife) to see that the kind of poverty AnAir talks about was rife in the UK right up until the sixties. That kind of society is not so very far behind us. It could come back again. And their are still areas of deep deprivation and lack of social and employment opportunities all over the UK. Close our eyes to it and say its because they are feckless. hm. bigger things at work there I think.

(bangs head on brick wall and gives up crying)

Things I would direct you to a thread I started where the most unpleasant let them starve the feckless gits was prevalent. It was about restricting access to benefits only to those who apply online. go on. have a look. And FWIW I think many tories have are horrified at the direction their party is going in.

Dont give up hope Air! I still think the majority of MN thinks these things are atrocious!

Clouds - because you accept housing is expensive, think people should have subsidised housing, but not for children to live in, because children are expensive, and people shouldn't have children if they can't afford them, but presumably if housing weren't so expensive they would be able to afford them