To think that if you will not even look look at this pie chart regarding the welfare spend from last year you have no right to comment?

[MadameDefarge]

THE FACTS

I will now try and find a breakdown of figures of those on long term benefit JSA/IB etc.

Then perhaps we could all have a reasonable discussion.

CTC is just a formulation of govt support. would it having another name or combining it with another benefit actually change that amount?

The US economy is doing much better than ours due to a better fiscal stimulation policy.

Good point spring diva.

Yep, ESA is regularly being described as an "out of work" benefit by ministers and in the media. It's included in the £26K cap and doesn't cause the household to be exempt.

To be clear, it is and out of work benefit, but for being too sick or disabled to work. I've seen people on ESA described as "unemployed", which iiuc goes against international standards, because such people are not available to work in the first place.

I wont even mention the fact that my business went down because people were not circulating their little disposable income through the wider economy.

It's interesting how people talk about the 'baby boomers' and the 'elderly' as if they are the same thing. Baby boomers are my parents' generation, many of whom are most certainly not elderly (especially given that they're often defined as those born between 1946 and 1965, so aged 48-67) and plenty are still in work, paying NI and such like.

I think of the 'elderly' more as my grandparents' generation who are old, lived through a whole host of absolutely shit (that their children and grandchildren have been lucky not to) and generally aren't enormously wealthy (some are, but not in comparison to the generation they raised).

It doesn't help to lump all pensioners in together and start blaming them for anything and everything. Actually blaming any particular group is not helpful.

No, it might not change the amount of money that the government has to spend, especially if they funded the CSA so that it could do the job it was supposed to do.

But it would create a much better, less entitled attitude amongst our citizens, and it would encourage people to think about whether they could afford children before they make them.

Indeed Parsing. its horrid.

Better fiscal stimulation policy in the US? I'd disagree. A bit apples and oranges don't you think?

william, I think you will find the majority of political, er discourse, at the moment surrounds the inability of the govt t stimulate growth with their current economic policies.

The whole debate about stimulating growth is a farce in the first place, the only road to economic recovery is by exporting more, and all our main export markets have fucked economies too so aren't keen on buying our stuff.

We could export more by devaluing the currency further, but this would make things like petrol and power more expensive.

There isn't going to be more growth of any significance for a long time - the real job of the government is to unwind the mess of debt we have without crippling the economy completely. If we can maintain flat growth we're doing very well.

To state the bleeding obvious, MOST people do not have children they cannot afford. Circumstances mitigate against the best laid plans. And if they do have a baby despite their best intentions, I would be horrified to live in a society that advocates abortion on those grounds. because that is the only alternative. Shall we become like China? and force abortions upon working couples who become pregnant with a child you decide is the result of fecklessness?

This says that you can claim ESA if you are in employment. So now I'm wondering if we are talking about the same thing Parsing.

well william I think you know perfectly well that there are plenty of economists who disagree with that position. But while the big boys slug it out, the rest of us have to suffer their, er, fiscal impertinences.

Clouds - no, that is a conclusion a person might come to if they weren't very analytical or good at understanding changes over time.

Do you understand that wages can increase at a slower rate than the things you are supposed to buy with those wages? That is called relative inflation. The vast increase in housing costs has meant normal wages now do not pay for normal housing.

I would say the issue therefore is that housing is too expensive, or wages or too low, or both.

It is a weird conclusion to come to that people in ordinary jobs should no longer have families.

Recent measures do seem to have addressed the ticking time bomb of an ageing population. I'm in my forties and expect to be killed by starvation, malnutrition, hypothermia or an illness previously treated by the former NHS well before I reach pension age even though DH and I both work.

not it doesnt. it simply says that ESA is available to those in employment and out of it.

From my perusal of these boards, the prevailing opinion on pretty much everything seems to be left wing? Particularly the benefits/welfare question. If there are truly nasty and cruel sentiments expressed, they seem to be directed towards anyone with a "right wing" opinion.

Absolutely agree with this.

Anyone saying that posters are 'nasty and cruel' to people on MN with left-wing views is being utterly disingenuous.

There is thread after thread here where Tory voters are called cunts and then systematically driven out of discussions so that the many left-wingers can agree with eachother that anyone with right-of-centre views is utterly evil.

I wouldn't advocate abortion on those grounds either, but we do have free contraception in this country, and I actually think that a significant number of people do have children they can't afford.

It might be interesting to see the figures for child tax credits and find out how many children have child tax credits claimed for them from birth and how many have child tax credits claimed for them when they are older, indicating that the family either couldn't afford the child in the first place, or that they genuinely did just fall on hard times.

Or maybe, just maybe, the vast majority or MN does not agree with your opinions? Just saying.

not it doesnt. it simply says that ESA is available to those in employment and out of it.

Yes, meaning it is not an out of work benefit.

Zwis. I couldn't have said it better. The govt has no choice but to cut than plan for the never never.

I so wish these threads would have practical discussions about the realities facing govt and there are often good ideas but they so often become hijacked by people ready to pounce at anyone not joining into the barking about benefit scroungers being demonised then it sadly dwindles into personal tales with an 'i have it worse than you' bent, some 'how dare you call me a be benefit scrounger' and loads of emoting. Then it starts to feel like a really bad meeting at a community centre where there is no agenda, a lot of people talking but nothing being accomplished.

What proportion of the working population would you consider significant?

Oh cloud, for heavens sake. I claim it as an out of work benefit, I assume some others claim it as an in work benefit. Are we not splitting hairs here? It is both.

The whole Tory v Labour thing is a farce too, their policies are broadly the same, and anyone who thinks Labour wouldn't be making cuts is naive, they would have to, the markets would demand it.

The house of commons is a staged show so that the members of the public take sides and argue with each other whilst those at the top fill their pockets.

What happened under the 13 years of New Labour? The rich got richer, the gap between the rich and poor grew massively. What has changed under the Conservatives? Nothing. Same old, same old, and to paraphrase Mel Gibson, "you're so busy fighting for the scraps from the governments table, you've missed your God given right to something better".

Shelley. I totally agree with you. I am politically left but want to see a significant reduction in govt intervention. Cradle to grave drives me crazy and i dont want a world where govt is involved in my housing or childcare! But it's not a popular idea on MN!