To be frustrated and angry that women are still expected to be the "emotion keepers" in families.

[seeker]

And if we don't stop doing it, our daughters will still be thinking they are responsible for "keeping men sweet" in 30 years time?

Peach - why should the OP expose those women who have posted here again to the 'yes, but' antics of those who 'enjoy the argument' of apologising for oppression?

Northern Please point out to me where I have said that its right that woman keep their men sweet? Is the OP the only one allowed to enjoy an argument or debate then? I have not once said that I think it is right for any person to be abused by another or that one sex should be regarded as above the other sex.

Just dony do it then and then your daughters wouldnt grow up doing it.

Peach, quite honestly I despise your views. I despise that you will excuse male violence by saying 'women can be abusers too' and I despise your attacks on feminism and feminists. If you don't want to be seen as an apologist for oppression, I suggest you have a rethink on those points.

"I am not going to link to the particular thread that cause me to post because it would not be fair to the OP of that thread if people piled over to look- it's still very active.

Hmmm. Quotations from known extremists in the 1970s used to support a statement about what view of "many feminists" believe in 2013!

How about I find a few quotations from "The Surrendered Wife" to support my point of view? Or from a novel by Barbara Cartland?

Northern You can despise what you think I believe that's up to you but to be honest you are just proving what a lot of people believe of feminists by not listening to what I am actually saying and changing it to suit what you want. I in no way agree with anyone abusing another person but I do not believe it is just women who should be protected from abuse.

All humans are equal in my opinion I am not an apologist for abuse you can believe it if you want but I know what I truly am and what I believe.

Seeker - frankly I can't be bothered to debate with you anymore you obviously believe rightly or wrongly what you believe you will not prove your points as you are supposedly protecting someone from their words on an open forum being looked at which is frankly pathetic.

Why do women (and it is ALWAYS women), get so angry about what other women do? How they bring up their children, how they manage their homes and relationships? ... and a hundred other instances. Why? Does it really bring about change?

Quite honestly, when I read a post that's jeering/putting down others/belittling beliefs or ideas and generally just done to provoke, I wonder what the purpose of it was. I don't take on board any points made because I'm so distracted by the spite. There are some wonderful posters on MN; vociferous and informative and their views make me think and challenge what I thought I knew. Goady posters never do. Perhaps they operate like the 'Go Compare' adverts... keep on long enough and somebody will sign up?

... I normally don't bother to post or comment when 'feminism' stomps into AIBU.

yy about the horrible term 'apologists'; so often misapplied and very unfair.

Peach- I am not going to link to a thread where there is a real person talking about her life merely to illustrate a point on a thread about how people in general behave. I would have thought anyone with an ounce of empathy would understand that.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 13:39:37
... but something in the way the original post was despatched has angered the vipers.

Why did you post that? Do you usually post on AIBU? Participate in any discussions here or did you just follow the FWR crowd to poke fun at the 'plebs' here? Any valid point that you might have made is negated by your pointless jibing. What a productive time you're having...

Excuse me? Are you kidding me? I do normally post on AIBU, actually. And I also participate in discussions. The term 'nest of vipers' has been used in an affectionate sense to describe the wonderfully varied community that is Mumsnet for some considerable time. I'm ever so sorry that you're some sort of clenched up newbie that wasn't aware of that fact. Do unclench, dear heart, you're asking for a lifetime of constipation if you continue. Shame.

'Hmmm. Quotations from known extremists in the 1970s used to support a statement about what view of "many feminists" believe in 2013'

Known extremists? I wouldn't let your more radical (extremist) sisters hear you calling 1970's radicals that. They wouldn't be best pleased. Anyway, the 2000's feminists are just as provocative, as I'm sure you're aware.

Oppression apologist? Well that's a new one. I am also a cat apologist, they chew up so much wildlife, but I still fuss them. I could extend 'apologist' to a great deal of my actions in life, but I don't, because I'd sound pretty daft. Perhaps others should be thinking the same.

'All humans are equal in my opinion ' - and that's the problem with your argument. 'are equal' - present tense and thereby you deny the existence of oppression. So if all humans are equal, why is rape used as an act of war? Why do women's refuges exist? Why do many countries across the globe have equality legistlation? Why, on this forum, in the last month, have we been asked if pregnancy and redundancy 'coincided'? To give just a few wideranging examples.

Lyingwitch - what a revealing turn of phrase there. Of course feminists and feminism 'stomps' doesn't it? Whereas wise and clever women glide their way through, not provoking, simply 'managing'? Nice example of the Op's argument right there.

NorthernLurker... You made me smile. I used the word 'stomp'; I meant it. The posts made on AIBU of a feminist slant are always provocative. The OP seeks a reaction and will write in any way to get it. Comments along the lines of 'why post it here and not in feminism where you will get complete agreement', are met with snarling derision (I meant 'snarling' too, just for clarity). I use the word 'stomping' as it describes what I think of such posts, which are always 'in your face' and are intended to be. Feminism posts are not the only ones but they always are written this way when for an AIBU audience.

There's nothing wrong with 'stomping' or 'snarling' 'managing' or 'gliding' come to that; they're all just adjectives. I wear safety boots most days and most definitely stomp, never glide. I have to compensate for my unfeminine ensemble with skirts and dresses...

Do we all really have to argue over something as basic as who soothes whom in a family set-up? I really don't get it.

I grew up with a dad and two brothers. It never occurred to any of us that anyone needed to be kept sweet. However, when I married, I found that almost all dh's male friends behaved as if that was a woman's role, MIL and sFIL did too, and sadly so did dh. He found that I wasn't up for it, so followed many years of difficulty as he vied for 'supremacy'.

16 years on and he's a bit more human, and dd won't take any shit from anyone.

It's been bloody tough, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. In fact, if ot for some unavoidable factors, it would never have happened, but hey.

I really ought to nc now. Bugger.

Why do women (and it is ALWAYS women), get so angry about what other women do? How they bring up their children, how they manage their homes and relationships? ... and a hundred other instances. Why? Does it really bring about change?

I always ask this and have not had an answer yet. I think it is insecurity and if a woman decides upon a course of action it has to be best.
There is a view that there is the magical way and if you simply do a,b,c and d then you get the perfect outcome. This ignores the fact that it is only ever 'best' for you and we are all different (and so are children). People feel so guilty if it doesn't fit them e.g. a woman at the moment has a baby who isn't cuddly and feels it must be her fault-not merely that she has a baby who likes his own space-not helped by MIL who then says 'baby is rejecting her'!!!
My pet hate (especially found on feminist sites) is the one that if you don't think the 'right' way then you have just gone down the traditional line without thought-not that you have had the same information and come to a perfectly valid but different conclusion!
If women just quietly got on with being role models then the DCs would take it in as normal and if men just quietly got on with being role models there wouldn't be a problem. My DSs don't have to be told they need to think of taking the rubbish out and they need to cook if they get in before the girlfriend-it is just what they have seen. e.g. if their father's button came off he got needle and cotton and stitched back-he didn't expect the mother to have superior skills because she is a woman!
All the fuss comes from women who have never had equality and want society in general to sort it out rather than sit their own DP down and sort it out. They also assume that everyone has the same problem.

Sigmund- I don't know anyone- and I know a lot of people who wouldn't agree that Valerie Solanas was an extremist!

I think it is legitimate to be provocative (not offensive) in the cause of feminism. By feminism I mean equality, not one gender having dominion over another.

I also think it is equally important that all the arguments have empathy at their heart. Otherwise it is just pseudo intellectual ranting.

Or actual intellectual ranting - all brain, no heart.

People over ideas. Respect for all.

'All the fuss comes from women who have never had equality and want society in general to sort it out rather than sit their own DP down and sort it out. They also assume that everyone has the same problem.'

By 'fuss' you mean resistance to being oppressed and abused, yes? Well you've got me bang to rights there. I'm a shocker for making a fuss about that.

Look, yes I do assume everyone has the same problem because I believe that our society systematically and endemically has a problem with women. I believe that misogyny lies at the heart of a huge amount of behaviour and I believe that women suffer because of that. As a woman, the daughter of a woman, the mother of women to be, I object to that. Personally i am safe in my own home. I have respect from my husband in my own home. That doesn't mean I'm happy just to wallow around whilst other women endure oppression.

Also re 'provocative' posting. Well of course feminism is provocative - but then so is pretty much everything posted on AIBU. It's a confrontational forum that invites you take sides. Is it just the feminists who are supposed to play nicely even here?

I don't personally know any women who are oppressed, I realise that there are lots-especially in 3rd world countries, but I think that people need to get the men in their own lives sorted out-and then tackle it.

I don't know how you can help the oppressed if you have grown up in UK and had parents who have grown up with parents in the culture of UK and yet you have to appease the man in your life. Why did you start and why are you still doing it?

I think that most people who help the oppressed have to get out of oppression first or they are not much help.

Northern I notice that you hgave only quoted the abusive texts part of my reply.

You have done the same to my post as you have to the story in the newspapers, taken the bits you "like" and ignored the rest.

Not at all, NorthernLurker... AIBU, whilst 'not a fight club' is still the home of the bunfight and the most popular board here by a country mile.

I'm not opposed to feminism by any means. I don't like posts which mop up swaythes of people (especially women) and intimate or directly accuse them of being wrong/stupid/lazy/insert favourite put-down here if they believe this or that or don't do this or have the gaul to do that. An example would be:

• AIBU to think that people who write in text speak are dim?
• AIBU to think that people who put their children in boarding school are bad parents?
• AIBU to think that women who don't consider themselves to be feminists are stupid?
• AIBU to be angry that women don't consider that they're being used if they iron their husband's shirts?

I've seen all of these threads (and of similar ilk). Now, for the typical goady threads (not feminism related), I don't wonder at all; they're timewastes and for me they're written by posters who feel insecure, were bitchy at school and are probably quite insignificant in their real lives now. Posting what they do is the only way they can feel that they 'matter'.

I really wonder why however, feminists, having a genuinely valid cause, would be so scathing to their audience? What's the point of writing an inflammatory post that is more like to get people's backs up? Some of the replies will be from irate posters who (like myself) will have missed the point of the thread because the language is accusatory. The message has been lost, assuming that there was one. If there was, what a waste. If not, what was it all about?

I've often felt that women are their own worst enemies and I read posts here and believe that to be the case. We can't seem to stop needling each other. Where's the sisterhood in that? It really puzzles me. I'm probably not explaining myself very well but truly, I'm missing the point of the need for attacking other women here. It seems endemic...

'I don't personally know any women who are oppressed' - I bet you do. Know anybody whose boyfriend influences who they see and when? Know anybody who has been raped within a relationship? Know anybody who has come home from work in distress because of how they've been treated and they were treated that way because they are a woman?

Your point about the culture of the UK exactly illustrates the point tbh - we don't live in an equal culture at all. What gave you the idea that we do? Women are allowed to drive and we don't have a marriage bar on employment anymore but this is not an equal culture. SGB mentioned lower down that 2 women a week are murdered by tehir partners. WHY is that?