To be frustrated and angry that women are still expected to be the "emotion keepers" in families.

[seeker]

And if we don't stop doing it, our daughters will still be thinking they are responsible for "keeping men sweet" in 30 years time?

[countrykitten]

No - the question of societal pressure has been raised and this involves both men and women. Unless you are suggesting that all of the societal pressure on women to be emotion keepers (a ridiculous phrase) comes from women?

[Bonsoir]

Why are you lost?

[seeker]

I would be quite happy to contribute to at thread about the ridiculous societal pressures on men- but this one was actually about women. And yes, some women do perpetuate the pressures on their on gender- just as man contribute to the pressure on them.

[AutumnMadness]

Bonsoir, I do not understand which one of these spreading values - consumerism or anti-consumerism, you consider universal. They are both increasingly present in a huge variety of societies around the world. But your definition, they both should signify universal truths. But they naturally can't because, by definition, there can be only one universal truth.

countrykitten, the topic of this thread is the expectations that society places on women to be responsible for men's emotional states. By "society" we mean both men and women. For instance, a woman who was raped while drunk will often be seen as at least partially responsible for her own rape: It was she who should have predicted and managed a man's reaction to her drunken self, and not the man who should have had control over his own reactions.

[countrykitten]

AM yes, some vile people may think this of a rape victim but the implication is that most people (society iyl) think this way and I do not believe that this is true.

[seeker]

Countrykitten- just wondering. Do you read the papers? Women's magazines?

[countrykitten]

No to both. Maybe once a month I will buy the Sunday Times. I also don't watch the tv. Why?

[AutumnMadness]

countrykitten, Daily Mail and the Sun would not be the most widely read newspapers in the UK if this was true. :(

If you really would like to test your argument, go out on the street and telling the drunken rape story to random strangers. I am sure that most (not all!) of them will have "she should not have been drunk" as their first reaction, the reaction that comes most easily and immediately, the one that does not require much conscious and deliberate mental processing. Of course, after a bit of thinking and particularly after a challenge, many people would agree that the sobriety of the woman in the story is completely irrelevant to the crime. But the default reaction would be to place the primary responsibility for managing the situation on the woman.

[countrykitten]

But I do listen to R4 quite a bit.

[countrykitten]

AM really?

[AutumnMadness]

No to both. Maybe once a month I will buy the Sunday Times. I also don't watch the tv. Why? Methinks you lead a sheltered life! :)

[AutumnMadness]

Yeah, really.

[countrykitten]

Well sheltered and happy with it so I don't feel bad about that.

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

Of course really.

[AutumnMadness]

countrykitten, nobody is saying that you should feel bad about your life, just perhaps not think that everybody lives like you.

[seeker]

I'm wondering, then, why you feel so well qualified to talk about society at large and it's expectations of women. It does sound very much as if you are extrapolating from your own immediate circle. If I did that, I would probably agree with you. Mind you, if I stepped into the next circle out things would start to look different. And by the time I reached the third circle........

[mathanxiety]

It does come from women, Countrykitten. Women police each others' behaviour and express expectations in subtle and not subtle ways. Hence my anecdote about my exMIL.

And since we are now at this late stage of the game talking about men, men police each others' behaviour too and in doing so they define what constitutes a man, manly behaviour and manly attitudes. Hence at the most unsubtle end, homophobia and remarks about being pussywhipped made by men and for men, expectations to play with anything but dolls and dress in anything but pink for boys, even baby boys. Just a few examples.

The defining of who people are and what behaviour is expected of people because of that definition takes place in the context of class too.

[Hugglepuff]

Not sure that that is how it is for everyone! I hope that my dh and I work as a team - and mutually support each other. I have a ds and dd - would definitely bring them both up to realise that you respect others regardless of gender. Would feel I had made a real balls up if my ds expects any future girlfriends to be his ' emotional keeper '!

[Catmint]

Autumn Madness - wow. You sure are eloquent and quick. Respect!

[countrykitten]

So I am not able comment on women in society as I have a 'sheltered' life (meaning I do not read Heat or watch TV - R4 I suppose is not considered a respectable enough source of info) and this coming from people who make judgements on the position of women in society based on an ASDA tv advert....? Hilarious.

[seeker]

No, nobody is making judgments based on the Asda advertisement. It has been used as an example.

There are lots of programmes on Radio 4 that discuss the position of women in society- Start the Week, for example, recently had an edition of the subject. So did The Moral Maze, I think. There are often discussions on Any Questions, and the Today programme. And a couple of weeks ago, Feedback was fascinating about why there women experts on things are very rarely called on (or volunteer) to comment on things. Oh, and Woman's Hour is on every day. The issue of women in science was touched on, interestingly, if a tad laddishly, on The Infinite Monkey Cage. And there are frequently routines on the Now Show on the subject. Not to mention Sunday.....shall I go on?

[countrykitten]

Right - so I CAN comment with some knowledge on women in society then as a R4 listener? So your own patronising remark that I am not 'well qualified' enough to comment on these issues since I DON'T read Heat etc. is rather a redundant one isn't it?

[seeker]

At what point did I mention Heat?

You said that you had never heard anyone seriously suggesting that women should accept any responsibility for being raped.(I paraphrase). This to me suggests that you don't engage very much with mainstream media. Because anyone who does could hardly have failed to at least hear discussions on the subject, even if not the actual allegations.

[countrykitten]

Actually no I didn't say that so perhaps you should re-read what I DID say which was that I did not believe that this would be the prevailing view in the situation as described.

You asked me if I read 'women's magazines' and I am sadly clearly an inadequate as I do not - I personally find the whole idea of 'women's magazines' rather ridiculous - I was using Heat as an example of such but I am actually not sure if it is one. If it's one of those TV magazines then I apologise, but I think you know what I meant.

[seeker]

Oh, don't be silly, country kitten.