To get really uncomfortable around a friend when she smacks her children...

[Toowittoowoo]

....and other harsh (in my view) disciplining?

I know it is none of my business how somebody else disciplines their DCs but they are all under 3 and they are so lovely. I also don't always understand why they are smacked - seems like trivial things to me. I just can't see my friend in the same way as I used to if she is capable of treating her children like that.

I don't actually agree with your last point luca
You can coexist marvellously, but if some bully persist in punching you in the face, probably best to defend yourself. Judo is better than hitting though.
"Telling someone in authority" is a good idea, but not always effective unfortunately.

kickass-read your last few posts again. Your dd is 2yrs old-a baby. You are "proud" she now hasn't needed to be smacked for 4 months! You say, "you wouldn't know to look at her that she had needed to be smacked", does that statement not seem odd to you?
Your dd knows what's expected of her, because, no matter how you "dress it up" or explain yourself, you are parenting through fear-do x or you will be smacked. And the fact that you take a 2yr old out of sight to smack her, makes me feel very uneasy. It feels very calculated and cold. You say you do it, so you don't get into arguments with people over smacking, I say you do it 'cos you know it's indefensible, & how could you justify yourself-"Yes, that's right, concerned member of public, I'm taking my 2 yr old into the toilet to calmly smack her for not doing as she was told. Yes, I am very proud of my parenting thank you. Oh, why not stand infront of the shop & do it? Well, er, er, well..."
I am not perfect, I have smacked in the past, but I have Never taken any of my dc "out of sight" to do it!
Though it might not be nice to see, I could understand a parent at the end of their tether with a tantruming toddler, tap a hand or bottom, but I would feel suspicious of seeing a toddler being taken out of view to be smacked.
Your smugness & self righteousness is misplaced-if you feel the need to do what you do now, god help you & your dd when she's a teenager!
And breathe......

I'm sorry, but I do not see how it is pompous to be against the hitting of people half (or smaller) your size.

I just don't see how it is.

I recognise that it is frustrating to see parents of one, or very young children, think they have all the answers, and of course none of us can see into the future. If a red mist situation descends on me and I smack my child one day, I would never defend it as the right thing to do; I would admit it was a mistake, when pushed to the limit. Not try to weasel my way out, and try to excuse it as part of my disciplining tool kit, or whatever.

I don't want my children to hit other children. I don't want other adults to hit my children. My DH doesn't hit other adults. I don't hit other adults when trying to resolve a situation, or when thing to assert myself. How do I teach my DC not to hit - and that violence and aggression is wrong - if I/we hit them?

I am genuinely confused as to how smackers deal with their child hitting, or other children hitting their child, when they fully, happily and comfortably hit their children. It is illogical.

I am not a mother of a toddler calmly judging those who hit their kids. My dd is 17. Yes some moments have been difficult but I haven't resorted to hitting her.

I think it's quite telling when hitters say that they were hit as children, and it didn't do them any harm. Well of course it harmed, you grew up thinking that's OK and it's fine to hit your own chidren. Good on those who have broken that pattern of violence.

I hope it is made illegal in the next few decades. Then it removes any grey area and quotes that the NSPCC say that calm hitting is OK, or whatever.

I hope I wasn't coming across as pompous, I was questioning, because so far none of the hitters have made any sense.
My DC's are teens, one with ASD. I know it can be a struggle, but hitting children isn't the solution.

My DCs are teenagers, too.

My eldest is an adult so past teens,and I think its nasty to hit children especially when they are 2.

Sorry if my post appeared pompous, but I feel both angry and sad at the apathy towards hitting kids in the wider society - I freely admit that I don't have all the answers and that my kids test my patience at times, as kids do, but I'm proud of the fact that I don't resort to hitting and am willing to try different methods in different situations. Just because I gave birth to them, I don't own my kids and have the right to do what I want without being called into question, but some people are happy not to interfere and regard hitting as just another 'parenting style'. It's more than just a 'choice', it's wrong.

Hitting anyone isn't big or clever. Someone up thread mentioned hitting back if being bullied, rather than tell someone. A playground bully hitting is the same as a parent hitting, temper or not. Both are people using physical force to gain advantage over someone smaller and defenseless, when they lack the intellect, imagination or desire to try other ways to get what they want.

I am neither pro or anti smacking; I do not have children and have therefore not had to address this issue. However I am pregnant and therefore read articles and discussions about child discipline with interest as it is something I will have to face in the future.

What I do find interesting is that the majority of you who are very quick to criticise other parents who use smacking as a form of discipline, remain quite silent on your own methods for disciplining your children. If you think that smacking is wrong and your way is superior then perhaps you should provide some detail as to what it is and how successful. But then again, it's far easier or you to name call and label someone as abusive (when parliament has already decided that they are not)

Positive reinforcement for good behaviour is all well and good but I do believe that there needs to be consequences for negative behaviour as well. Some of the crap I have read about on other sites about ignoring annoying or naughty behaviour or not putting your child in a certain situation (for example where they are not allowed to touch anything) is just ludicrous.

Surely the best way for children to learn is that positive behaviour is rewarded and praised and bad behaviour has consequences. I'm just not sure what those consequences should be, particularly for a toddler.

dreaming disciplining a child is not a quick fix, one trick solution. On some occasions, ignoring bad behaviour IS effective, in others not so much. There are hundreds of different techniques for dealing with unwanted behaviour, I'm very surprised you haven't read any in your articles
Fwiw, I do not think that smacking automatically equals child abuse but I do think it is unnecessary and often a result of lazy parenting. On the surface it 'works' so some people do not bother to try other methods.

What's with the sceptical face NopeStill?!

I have read one or two articles on parenting websites about how to discipline toddlers. What exactly do you find so hard to believe about that?! I never suggested I had spent hours researching the issue, did I.

What i have found is that they seem to refer to positive reinforcement but don't seem to refer to consequences for negative behaviour. Yes I appreciate that ignoring bad behaviour works to an extent but surely there comes a point when there has to consequences for doing something that the child is not meant to do?

Apologies, the face probably confused matters.

What I was trying to convey was the fact that even though you are claiming to be neutral, your post just comes across as the "They took away our right to smack and left no alternative" way of thinking. Sorry if that is not the case but it was a rather scathing view of anti-smackers.
Like I said, there are many different techniques suggested in many different articles and the reason that most concentrate on only positive reinforcement is because consequences and punishment is not really something a toddler can comprehend well. Usually a stern "No" and removing them from the situation will suffice until they are old enough to understand time outs/removal of toys etc.

Maldives
This was more or less what I did:
disciplining toddlers

I do need to comment on this, though: ...label someone as abusive (when parliament has already decided that they are not)
Just because the UK parliament still hasn't outlawed smacking, doesn't make it acceptable. Many other governments have outlawed it. But perhaps those countries' MPs didn't grow up in an Etonian-style culture where fagging and beating are the norm.

OP, YANBU. Being around another mum who smacks their child would make me uncomfortable too.

I can sort of understand it if it is more really dangerous behaviour, like running off into a road, as an occasional one-off tactic (not that I could ever do it).

But for being 'naughty' would upset me to see it. Even strangers in public who I see smacking, it really leaves a sour taste.

Plus, as others have said, there's no way I could give a rational and plausible argument to my own children, if they questioned it.

Dreaming, my discipline varies according to the child and the situation. My children have clear rules and we parent consistently. I don't smack however because I think that it is morally wrong and because how can I discipline my children if I do not have self discipline. How is hitting a child because they have hit another child supposed to show them what is right or wrong. No one who smacks has yet had an adequate answer to this one.

So in some instances, ignoring bad behaviour works, especially if the behaviour is trying to gain your attention. Obviously if the child is doing something dangerous or hurting another child, e.g. hitting etc you don't ignore it, but to say it is ludicrous shows a lack of experience, in the right time and place it is an appropriate response.

Positive enforcement is great as well, children respond really well to praise, it doesn't mean that there aren't consequences if they behave badly though.

My post wasn't intended to be a scathing view of anti smackers, more a slightly scathing view of people on this thread who seem very quick to judge those who use smacking, without making any suggestion of how their way of parenting is more effective. Some of those same people also criticise the use of time outs as well. It's very easy to be critical and judge while remaining silent on your own 'better' ways of parenting.

I guess I am left with my mind boggling at what on earth I am going to do with a toddler who won't behave him/herself, causes chaos and drives me to distraction. I think the realisation that I am going to become a parent in a few months has hit and I am panicking about EVERYTHING child related, from baby stage onwards! anyone got a paper bag for me to breathe into

I was out with a friend a few months ago and her almost 2 year old. We were sat in a cafe which was empty when we arrived. My friend allowed her daughter to get out every book the cafe had and spread them around, to pour salt all over another table and as the cafe filled up, to go and stand behind (and clearly irritate) the people at another table. I tried to engage the girl by talking to her and getting a book to look at with her or one of her toys but this didn't work and I didn't feel it appropriate to do any more than that when my friend did nothing.

All I remember thinking is that surely there is a way to prevent that kind of behaviour, but not having children really having no idea if it was or how. It wasn't a case of the child getting bored after sitting down for a while, it was from the moment we got into the cafe.

I didn't intend to come across as 'they took away our right to smack an left no alternative' because I know that the right to smack hasn't been taken away. The law allows it in the UK. I say this not because I agree with it or otherwise but as a matter of fact.

I really am neither pro or anti smacking. I probably will fall into the no smacking camp when the time comes because I do not even smack my dog because it just wouldn't feel right so i cant imagine it would feel right with a child. My husband once smacked our dog when he had run off in the park and couldn't find him. When he finally found him after my DH had been panicking, my husband smacked him out of panicking and relief. He then spent the rest of the week feeling awful and guilty that he had done it!

My eldest is 16, so probably more smacking around when they are little. I didn't like it at the time, but was friends with some women who did it.

In retrospect I would say the dividing line between children who grew up well behaved and children who didn't was not perhaps so much between parents who smacked very occasionally and parents who never smacked: it was more between parents who had a quietly authoritative approach and parents who were inconsistent, shouty and with negative expectations of their children.

(Unsurprisingly, the girl who at the age of 11 was described as a nymphomaniac by her mother (not a friend of mine) was pregnant 5 years later. According to dd, there was nothing in it when they were 11- but of course there is nothing like a self fulfilling prophecy.)

Can't say I ever felt less capable of maintaining discipline because I didn't smack. Couldn't see the point tbh, and as the results in our local community seem to suggest that the children of sensible calm authoritative parents grew up just as well behaved anyway, I still don't see the point.

My family have got by without it for generations. I'd feel a bit pathetic if I was the first family member since the year 1900 who couldn't keep my own children under control without it.

Yes I can see what you are trying to say now and believe it or not, I actually have a very similar view

Don't sweat it, No-one (nomatter how smug) has all the answers, just accept the fact that you will try your best,you will probably fuck up a fair few times but tomorrow you can start all over again.

Blueberry - I have accepted that ignoring bad behaviour can work and agree that it would be the right thing to do when it is attention seeking but CONTINUALLY ignoring naughty behaviour (which isn't dangerous or hurting someone) surely cannot be right. I just don't see it.

You say that positive discipline doesn't mean that there aren't consequences for negative behaviour but again you do not explain what those are. Those people who condone smacking make it clear (in their posts) what they are but the anti smackers do not.

Dreaming, your friends child shouldn't be doing that in a cafe, I think that children should be taught to behave well in cafes. In that situation we have books, crayons etc that we take in, we don't let them walk around annoying other people. Distraction is a good way to stop bad behaviour, we take them to watch pizzas being made etc, but we don't get in the way. Bottom line though, if they don't behave we take them out, they are warned and then the punishment is carried through.

I'm not perfect in my parenting, but DH and I consider what we do, change the approach if it isn't working or as children grow up. My DCs, I have 2 yo twins and a 6 yo, so far are turning out OK, they know that there are boundaries, warned about crossing them and have punishments if they ignore those boundaries. The punishments for DS1 (6 yo) include 5 mins going to bed earlier for each thing, no TV etc, He isn't badly behaved, the main problem is tuning out and playing with his toys instead of geting dressed, he is really good. They work with him because he doesn't want to go to bed at the same time as the 'babies' and wants to watch Power Rangers.

I wouldn't get too wound up about it, its not that difficult, pick your battles, praise is really good at getting to do what you want them to do. If it isn't working think again and keep your cool. I don't always manage the last one but I really try to.,

TwoFingers thanks for that link, it's great that it has real examples of what to do in common situations.

I think every parent should be given that info during pregnancy.

Dreaming, does my last post answer your question? My punishments are personal to each child, whatever they like / want is a privilege, if they don't behave correctly we take that away for a set period. We have taken them home from playgrounds, days out etc if they haven't behaved. We haven't had to do this for ages as DS understands the consequences. He knows that we have a line and if he crosses it, there is a consequence, we are consistent with that and follow through. I don't always ignore bad behaviour, it depends what it is and why they are doing it and that depends on the individual child.

DTs are at a different stage in their development but they understand 'no' and are just starting to understand that things will be taken away if they don't behave.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Tue 12-Feb-13 08:38:39

"What I do find interesting is that the majority of you who are very quick to criticise other parents who use smacking as a form of discipline, remain quite silent on your own methods for disciplining your children. If you think that smacking is wrong and your way is superior then perhaps you should provide some detail as to what it is and how successful."

This is a reasonable question imo and deserves an answer. I think one reason it doesn't always get one is because parents who don't smack don't necessarily have one single stock punishment.

This is my experience of growing up in a non smacking but well disciplined household (and I do hope my children would be able to say something similar):

My parents were quite proactive about keeping me safe. A lot of the time they didn't have to punish me for doing dangerous things, because they had already made sure I couldn't. Dangerous substances were put away in a high place, knives were in a top drawer, the kitchen was fenced off with a stairgate, somebody kept an eye on me in places that couldn't be made safe. When we went outside, I wore reins or held hands when I was too little to be trusted. If I had been trusted and misbehaved, that was back to the reins.

They were also proactive about boredom. They got me used to enjoying conversations from a very early age, so that they could keep me entertained in cafes etc, and if they took me out they would see that as their job. (I myself once read stories to dd all the way from Calais to Berlin on the train; dh used to make up his own stories for them. But you need to train children to enjoy stories).

They reacted instantly if I was doing something I shouldn't. When I was little, they would remove me calmly but firmly from where I shouldn't be, take the toy or item I shouldn't have away from me, put the coat on that I didn't want to wear etc. f I hit another child, I was taken home from the party instantly.

They rarely lost their temper- but they didn't give in either! Eventually, I learned that there wasn't much point in struggling because they tended to get their way.

They had perfected the headmistress look and the brisk unflappable headmistress tone of voice.

If I got out of control (tantrum), I would be put in time out, but this wasn't happening every day.

As I got older, there were consequences: not allowed out the next day if I had overstayed my curfew etc.

But they also spent a lot of time in conversation with me and talked to me as a sensible human being. Whenever the punishment was over, we would revert to that. They never held grudges.

As I grew older, I needed fewer and fewer consequences because I had got to respect them and wanted their approval.

For a six year old it is ok to have consequences that happen later, e.g., earlier bedtime.

For a one/two year old, that is pointless. The action and consequence have to be immediate, swift and not drawn out. A warning, followed by a tap on the bum or hand is fine. It is not traumatic for the child or parent. It is a simple way of communicating, 'hey, you are crossing a boundary' in a way a toddler understands.

Accepting parental authority is not the same as being scared of your parents. I think there is too much of wishy-washy nonsense of negotiating all the time. I think that is very disconcerting for toddlers who are just trying to explore their boundaries

When a child becomes 5-6, they should never be smacked. They are too old and other consequences, such as blueberry's early bedtime will work.

Blueberry, your post does answer my question in relation to older children but I am still quite stumped by toddlers. Surely there are occasions when removing the toddler from the scene isn't feasible - if you are out with family or friends, particularly if you haven't seen them for a while, you aren't going to want to leave because your toddler has done something naughty. Or if the toddler is being naught at home etc