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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say he can't go to stag do if there are going to be strippers?

695 replies

DelphineD · 09/02/2013 23:10

I'm sorry if this ends up being long; I will try to keep it as concise as possible.

Last year DP went to a stag do (first one that has come up whilst we have been together). It was one of his closest friends, and one that I previously liked and respected. They were away for 2 nights. I had wondered if some sort of strip thing might be involved but I thought probably not as the friend was not that kind of man and DP assured me when he got back that there was nothing of the kind. I later found out (through my scarily good investigation and interrogation!!) that this was not the case. On the first night they had been to a strip club and on the second night there were topless waitresses at their apartment for about 3 hours. This info came out bit by bit. Each time DP would insist there was nothing more to tell, then I found out something else. Eventually I think I got a full confession out of him but it was difficult to be sure as he had lied so many times about it. I also got out of him that there had been topless waitresses at a work party he had attended some time before (I had suspected something wrong and he had always denied it before.) He claimed all this was not of his doing, it was not really of interest to him and he just went along with it because they were in a group and he didn't want to make a fuss etc etc. If he had had a lap dance, I would have broken up with him (friend had a lap dance and the man has gone down a lot in my estimation.) As it was I nearly broke up with him anyway. He knew how much I hated strippers and how I would feel about it, and he did it anyway. But I think the most damaging thing was the lying. I trusted him before, and he had destroyed all that.

We got over it and agreed that if there was anything like this again he would tell me the truth and face the music. He understands how much more damaging it was that he lied about it. Since then, I have been to a work party where there was a male stripper. I didn't know in advance but I did know once I got there and I could have come home. It seemed a bit hypocritical, but I went anyway. I just sat at the back, while some of the married women in my group, went up on stage, straddled the stripper, took their wedding rings off, etc etc. That made me think that I wasn't so worried about DP being present in a large room where women were stripping, it was how he behaved and the interaction that would bother me. Hence why I was more upset about the topless women in the apartment than the ones in the strip club. FWIW I believe he would have behaved in a similar way to me in his situation. But his friend having that lap dance upset me, and made me think you can't trust any man, even the ones who seem nice and like they really love their partners.

Now he has his DB's stag party coming up. It's in the city where we live, but some people will be coming from elsewhere so there will be an apartment rented again. He has said he will tell the truth about it this time. He has admitted that the best man is planning something to do with strippers but nothing is booked in yet. I'm already feeling upset about it already and I just don't want him to be around strippers at all. WIBU to say, if that is happening, I don't want you to go at all?

OP posts:
SomethingOnce · 13/02/2013 18:41

I hope my question wasn't in invisible ink, del...

MarmaladeTwatkins · 13/02/2013 18:42

OK so working to your ridiculous logic, Delboy, if one or two other triggers didn't exist, then sexual assault would cease to exist? Stop being obtuse.

It IS a cultural nuance that you cannot find a LDC labelled as a LDC in Middle Eastern countries. Of course it is. But what is a private member's bar where men can gather and socialise and... get a prostitute in to perform a sex show for them (yes this DOES happen. I have friends in Dubai who have been "entertained" in this way by associates Hmm) Fair enough the neon lights aren't there, the over-priced beer isn't there, but it's men paying to watch an overtly sexual performance. And you think that because it isn't labelled as a LDC that the essentials are not the same?

Pfffffft.

delboysfileofax · 13/02/2013 18:43

Something. I was doorstaff at the club.

Freudian- but this pornification of society you talk about, I would agree with you if countries without this culture treated women better, however it really doesnt seem this way. So why are strip clubs/the sexualisation in our country seen as the cause of sexual assaults if they dont occur in countries without them? surely it doesnt work both ways?

MarmaladeTwatkins · 13/02/2013 18:44

Also, what Freudian said.

delboysfileofax · 13/02/2013 18:45

apols, should read DO occur in countries without them.

seeker · 13/02/2013 18:46

. So why are strip clubs/the sexualisation in our country seen as the cause of sexual assaults if they dont occur in countries without them? surely it doesnt work both ways?

  1. They are obviously not the only cause.
  2. There are no countries without strip clubs. As several people have said several times.
MarmaladeTwatkins · 13/02/2013 18:48

But what you just said would only make sense if they were the sole cause. Which they are not.

And the other error in your post is that STRIP CLUBS DO EXIST IN THESE COUNTRIES.

Seriously, we wonder why doormen get a reputation as hard of thinking?

FreudiansSlipper · 13/02/2013 18:50

do you not want society to move forward to progress?

do you want young girls growing up with ambitions to be a lap dancer because it looks glamorous

would you not rather a society that promotes to young women that their body is not for sale, that their value is not based on how they look but on the person they are

delboysfileofax · 13/02/2013 18:52

Any proof they're the cause at all seeker? And if they are just a factor rather than a root cause what does it matter if they are there or not?

And thirdly and most importantly, why should you dictate what is and isnt ok? If you dont like something dont go

SomethingOnce · 13/02/2013 18:53

Ok, thanks for answering.

Were I a 'dancer' having a shit time, I'm not sure the door staff at my workplace would necessarily be my go-to confidantes about such matters as a sense of violation, background abuse issues, for example, so your proximity doesn't convince me that you can offer persuasive insights.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 13/02/2013 18:53

I agree with Freudian's last post.

In fact, can any of the LDC advocates provide the thread with a concrete reason for keeping these places open? I mean a really good reason. No wishy-washy jibber-jabber about "freedom of choice" for the wimmin, because let's face it, that is shaky ground isn't it?

SomethingOnce · 13/02/2013 18:54

Hey, Marm, fair's fair, let's not indulge in stereotyping door staff.

delboysfileofax · 13/02/2013 18:56

Ok marmalade, since I am so completely thick, show me evidence of strip clubs in Saudi/Afghanistan. Go on, any you like. Not just anecdotally mentioning a prostitute being hired to a club, or a prostitute going to someones home. You can claim they're the same thing but they're not.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 13/02/2013 18:56

"And thirdly and most importantly, why should you dictate what is and isnt ok? If you dont like something dont go"

Yes, seeker, that's told you.

Don't like animal testing? Simple. Stay away from the vivisection clinics!

Don't like Workfare?! Best not to protest, simply don't shop in Poundland.

See, the problem is, it IS the business of people like us, actually. People like us that don't think that women's body's for sale correlates with a progressive society. So it's us versus the dimbos who pay to use this type of place because it's their right as men. That actually makes me want to vomit. Because that is what it boils down to; men thinking that the feminists are ruining their fun and their right to leer at women. Vile.

delboysfileofax · 13/02/2013 18:57

Why is freedom of choice shaky ground?

AnyFucker · 13/02/2013 19:03

OK. The reception staff at my place of work have a superficial understanding of what I do in my professional life.

if I thought they were to be found regularly pontificating about how my job works, the challenges I face, reducing what I do to the sum of it's parts, thinking they know what the fuck they are talking about I would be beyond furious

delboy I don't know who you think you are talking for...but it isn't women

everything I see from you supports a man's right to access sexual services (yes, LDC's are such)

so, I do wonder why you "pop up" on these threads

you can't talk for those female dancers any more than I can

MarmaladeTwatkins · 13/02/2013 19:03

Right. I will explain this s-l-o-w-l-y Delboy.

Strip clubs are ILLEGAL in Middle Eastern countries. Ergo, you will find no evidence of them.

This does not mean that men who wish to pay to leer at tits/fanny are unable to do so. It just means that they have to do it privately.

Are you familiar with the prohibition era? Where sale of alcohol was banned? So people got around not being able to drink in bars by holding tea parties and illegally smuggling drink into them? You'd have been hard pushed to find "evidence" of a bar/pub but they were operating, just under ground and under a different guise. A very simplified comparison, but I can see you're struggling.

Your request for proof of LDCs in Arab countries is a bit of a dimwittery, tbh.

MarmaladeTwatkins · 13/02/2013 19:04

"Why is freedom of choice shaky ground?"

Have you been reading this thread?!

A percentage of women working in the sex industry aren't given choices.

delboysfileofax · 13/02/2013 19:09

what percentage of women working in strip clubs dont have a choice? 10, 20, 30%? Any figures at all? Any proof?

AnyFucker · 13/02/2013 19:14

delboys, for decent people a figure of "infinitesimal %" is enough to turn them off the idea that their orgasm is more important than someone else's suffering

you don't get that ?

delboysfileofax · 13/02/2013 19:16

What about proof of these underground strip clubs? So if strip clubs are illegal and are forced to go underground ie there will still be some, why does it matter if they are up front about it here.

Also, regarding your post about wanting to live in a progressive society one without women being subjected to x y and z why dont feminists run a political party? And then you can run society for a minority but at least you will have a mandate to do so

FreudiansSlipper · 13/02/2013 19:16

nice little bit of research for you to read from the mid 90's does not answer your question but look at the reports of abuse the amount of women bitten :( Is also a study from the us it is grim reading

www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/stripc2.htm

seeker · 13/02/2013 19:16

Out of interest, delboy- what do you think of the men who use lap dancing clubs? Decent, upright pillars of the community, are they?

delboysfileofax · 13/02/2013 19:18

Ok Anyfucker, prove even half a percent of them dont have a choice. I completely agree with you by the way, if anyone was forced to work there it is unacceptable. but thats the problem isnt it? there is no proof whatsoever

ChairmanWow · 13/02/2013 19:20

Chairmanwow- but how? how do strip clubs lead to you being assaulted on a dancefloor? An individual male did that to you, not spearmint rhino.

Sorry, I know this has moved on a bit, but Delboy has totally missed the point. The sex industry objectifies women (and a minority of men) in a society where women are already devalued. The sex industry says that you can pay money to ogle women and treat us like pieces of meat. It dehumanises us. I'm not saying sleazy clubs are 100% the cause but it's hard to argue against a whole industry based on exploiting women's bodies contributing to men devaluing us and reducing us to tits and arse.

I'm so disheartened by the sex industry apologists on here. There is a weight of anecdotal evidence from sex industry survivors and those who work with them that shows a degree of abuse in the industry. What degree, we don't know. But it's there. Stop justifying this crap.