To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

[seeker]

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

Feminists are more likely to have anger directed at them because we are perceived to be attacking upwards, and therefore potentially creating a (more) dangerous situation for women.

I say 'perceived' because feminists are not immune from directing anger at other women. I, for one, have to try hard not to sometimes.

16 and DD is 13

Daddelion, you think it "makes a lot of sense" to say feminists are raising their sons wrongly? All of them? Because I think it's an utterly stupid comment to make.

A feminist is not a synonym for man-hater. It's just the idea that people should be treated with respect and decency regardless of gender, and the acknowledgement of the fact that in most instances, women are discriminated against. Note I say "in most" - it's my view, as I've said already twice on this thread alone, that the family courts tend to discriminate against the person who isn't primary carer, and that person is usually the man. But it's the sole example I can think of where women are generally given the same kind of unthinking privilege men get elsewhere in life. And it's linked to the perception of traditional gender roles, to boot.

I am not a Feminist. I am an Equalist.

Mary Beard is highly educated and very bright. Happens to have grey hair, slight double chin and strong opinions.
Do do John Humphries, Jonathon Dimbleby etc.

One of the great releifs in my life is that my stepdad expected all of us to excel and support ourselves.
I respect those who earn my respect.
In Real life I am even more psychotic than I often appear on forums (according to those who know me on both)

When I was working my boss suggested I went on "anti-assertiveness training". I asked how many of my male colleagues would be on the same course. The subject was never raised again.

Men and women are not the same. The best businesses and organisations have at least 25% of the minority gender (the very best are around 60:40).
Accept the difference

and ladies, stop hiding behind botox and dyed hair.
That is why she REALLY got panned. She is not ashamed to be who she is.
most female TV presenters are.

I don't know that they're ashamed TalkInPeace - with some (eg Fiona Bruce) I think it is a calculated decision. They like their job, they want to keep their job, they know they won't keep it if they don't stay young-looking.

Mary Beard has more freedom because tv isn't her real job so if she stopped being able to do it it wouldn't be a huge deal for her.

"most female TV presenters are. " (ashamed to be who they are)

I wonder why?

(sorry. Just noticed you're Talkin Peace not Talk In Peace!)

Coming that's really tough. Hopefully as he grows up more he'll start seeing the feet of clay.

Tunip
But why should Fiona Bruce have to make a decision that Eddie Mair has not?
Maybe if more top notch female presenters went grey (but not cat eye filler face like Arlene Philips) then the problem would start to solve itself as the role models would alter.

TiP

Yeah but that's sort of the point of feminism TP2.

She shouldn't have to make that decision.

Unfortunately we all have to live our lives and none of us exist in a vacuum so we have to make compromises.

coming, that is really annoying.

I don't know if this is right for her age, but has your DD seen Brave? I'm only asking because I loved it and it is such a good film about a girl who isn't just demure. It has a message about not just hitting out, but very unusually, it's a male character who shows what it is really like to suffer for hitting out instead of thinking things through.

(Ok, ok, I'll collect my monies off the filmmakers for propaganda now! ).

That remains to be seen but I feel all the different examples we have heard about on this thread and know ourselves show how deeply entrenched it is

My DC are meant to be bright, well brought up blah blah but both seem to buy fully into so much of it without even realising

Fiona did go on the news wearing no make up and glasses instead of contacts once. She had an eye infection apparently.

The furore was incredibly depressing.

Abso-bloody-lutely right she shouldn't have to TalkinPeace, but she's said publicly she feels she has to to keep her job.

Same here cominginto. I have brought my son up to treat girls equally but sadly some of the things that come out of his mouth are very depressing indeed Not only that the girls are just as bad about other girls!

ClippedPhoenix I think we do the best we can, but the influence of friends and society in general is so powerful

GOOD EVENING MUMSNETTERS
Peace and love.

Hmm - now my DH is not bad - not perfect - but not bad and was asked to head up the Diversity Committee at work. He asked me for views on how to get the good female employees to keep working after children. I offered several suggestions, but said that the company should also offer the MALE employees more flexible working and the opportunity to get home earlier etc. We had a HUGE argument about this. To him it was about the women...this stuff...he refused/could not understand how men having the opportunity to be more flexible could impact on the women......He gets it NOW ;-)

I am trying to raise my son in a feminist way. That is, I want him to value other people, to be kind and gentle and thoughtful. To hold fast to what he believes. To think how what he does impacts on other people, and to acknowledge responsibility for that impact. To make decisions - not to do what people around him are doing unless he decides to. To be strong, and grounded and happy. To be reliable and honest. To be the sort of person other people turn to in a crisis. To do nice things for others.
The same way I try to raise my daughter......

fgs, Olivia, where have youn been ?