To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

[seeker]

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

[MurderOfGoths]

"I think my favourite is when a guy says something deeply sexist, and then qualifies it with an, "I love women". It's the, "I'm not sexist. I love the little ladies!" argument."

There's a Yes, Minister quote where Sir Humphrey denies being sexist then qualifies it with, "some of my best friends are women... my wife even!"

[perfectstorm]

I don't think you can know, a lot of the time. I mean, if there's real anger or venom there, I'd think misogyny. On the other end of the spectrum, you often see comments that seem indicative of the person being essentially harmless, and just clueless. But a lot of the time, the reaction falls in the middle, so you've no way to tell. Sexism is just so much more accepted than racism is. Someone in the Guardian gave an example a couple of days ago of a tweet that was as racist as Austin Mitchell's were sexist, and it was actually jaw-dropping. Yet when he was being misogynist (because yeah, his tweets really were, on reflection) it didn't seem as bad to me. Because feminist as I am, I'm also a product of my culture, and casual sexism is very commonplace, and unchallenged, in a way racism just isn't anymore, thankfully. So I was way more shocked by overt racism.

I also think it depends a lot on the subject matter. The boots/driving thing, and there's a far higher chance someone is just a bit clueless. Misogyny on a thread or article about Steubenville, and they're either a misogynist or a troll.

I think my favourite is when a guy says something deeply sexist, and then qualifies it with an, "I love women". It's the, "I'm not sexist. I love the little ladies!" argument.

[perfectstorm]

Daddilion it's impossible to answer. I mean, if someone asked you if you thought racists were common, what would you say? I think racists are too common, but most people aren't racist. However, people who aren't truly racist can say pretty racist things, on occasion. I think it's the same with misogyny.

A misogynist resents women. I know guys who say sexist things just because they inhabit a culture which enables that, so they don't notice or think about it, or how it actually contributes to a world which is inherently pretty hostile to women, but aren't, actually, misogynist themselves. They just reflect the culture they live in.

Honestly, I used to think very few men were misogynist. Now, I think many more were than I had any idea, because the internet's anonymity means they can express it openly with real ease and confidence. I do remember an ex had porn (playboy or penthouse letters was it?) and I looked at it and was really shocked by how the stories were so nasty about women. And it made me wonder if it was that the men who worked for the magazine had issues with women, or, more scarily, that that was what sold, so what most men thought. I still don't know the answer to that question.

I'm shielded to a large extent, because I'm married to the nicest man in the world (no, really, he is - we were friends first) and our friends are obviously good people, too. At least they are around us - I suppose one could be capable of saying stuff like that online, but I doubt it. But that's people we choose to be around.

Honestly, I don't know. I think true, women-hating misogynists are likely relatively rare, but by the same token, they aren't as rare as all that. There are too many DV cases, too many misogynist postings, too many beaten and abused prostitutes, for a tiny group to be responsible. And I think there are a lot of people who aren't misogynist themselves, as such, but who just accept the world as it is and use the language and express the ideas of misogyny. Do I think all ice hockey fans, mentioned before, are misogynists? No. I think they're just guys who don't see misogynist comments as bad.

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Just Ariel is fine :)

Oh we fight about it obviously. He doesn't just roll over about things like "How is it my fault if I can tolerate more mess than you?" which is often mentioned on feminism threads.

[SolidSnake]

ArielThePiracticalMermaid i think there is a difference between being ignorant and a misogynist. Like you said, you pointed out the mistake and he accepted it. I think if he said something offensive (like "some women are asking to get raped by the clothing they wear") you pointed out the mistake and he still stuck by his guns about it and didn't care what you thought, that would be misogynistic behaviour (hypothetically of course!)

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

I don't think I agree with that. DP occasionally does/says something which makes me want to yell, but I wouldn't describe him as "a misogynist". It's a bit like ignorance...I think he might do/say/not do something because of social norms or bad habits, but once I have pointed it out, after looking a bit t7aken aback and saying perhaps he hadn't thought of it like that before, he would think more carefully in future. That's good, surely? Getting people to think and evaluate.

[SolidSnake]

Daddelion There is no sometimes you are a misogynists, sometimes you are not. You either are one, or your not, there is no middle line. And if you are misogynistic towards one woman, you are by default misogynist to all women.

[Daddelion]

I'd be interested to know what is the percentage of men people think are misogynists?

Are they misogynists all the time or just sometimes?
To all women or just some?

I know it's a subjective question, but I wonder what the answers would be.

[flippinada]

Purely answering the op, because:

1. They benefit from it in some way
   
   
2. They are aware of it on some level but find the concept so disturbing that they would rather deny it and work hard to do so.
   
   
3. They've absorbed the message that women are inferior to men and accept it as natural.
   
   
4. They also hate women.

[perfectstorm]

Thanks, Framey.

[MurderOfGoths]

Just leaving this here...

[FrameyMcFrame]

PerfectStorm, your posts are fantastic

[MurderOfGoths]

"If asking for equal rights and fairness is such a bad thing for some people, then I honestly just....I dunno....perhaps I should head back into the kitchen and bake a fucking apple pie and give up entirely?"

It's really disheartening isn't it :(

[ArielThePiraticalMermaid]

Where are the man hating sentiments on this thread? Have you actually read it, Hilary? It seems very strange to me that you should keep saying this when you are the one who upset people with your hateful comments?

There has not been one poster on this thread who has expressed "hatred for men" rather than support for equality for women and men.

[TheDreadedLurker]

By the way, I found Fusam´s comment very interesting. Since many people wouldn´t dare making a racist comment yet feel it´s perfectly fine to make derrogatory comments to females, it´s always good to hear from somebody who can comment on both issues from a personal experience point of view and very telling that she finds sexism to be more hurtful to her.

[TheDreadedLurker]

Holy crap! There really are some bloody unpleasant people on Mumsnet...AND really screwed up too...jeez!
I fail to see how ANY of the self-confessed feminists who have posted on here are "man-hating"!! (and I´ve read the entire thread)
I don´t see that any of their comments have been irrational rants against men, boys and maledom in general.
It seems like people come on here because they have this preconceived idea of feminists as (here it comes, block your ears/eyes) sigh "hairy-legged, lesbian man-haters and feel they simply MUST contradict them and shout them down at all cost.
If they actually took the time to read what people are writing in a calm and objective way, they would see there is no man-hating here.....just a call for equality! If asking for equal rights and fairness is such a bad thing for some people, then I honestly just....I dunno....perhaps I should head back into the kitchen and bake a fucking apple pie and give up entirely?
´Scuse me, but I´m getting annoyed

[TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub]

YY JustA. Part of the "men are visual creatures" trope with a side order of "women need to be emotionally attached"

[JustAHolyFool]

So tonight I go out with a friend and an acquaintance. The acquaintance would personify himself as dead right on. There were some girls in short skirts dancing in front of us, and he was gazing at them. He started telling me some bull about how men are not sexy like women. I said well, you're a hetero guy, so...how would you know, really? I would LOVE some men to dance like that. He tried to deny that.

It's just normal, in our society, isn't it? Men aren't sexy, women are. I HATE that.

[AnyFucker]

they're out in force tonight, ain't they ?

none too articulate either

[MurderOfGoths]

I.. er.. don't even know where to begin with that post...

I'd quite like to treat everyone with respect even if I think they are just wielding the big spoon, but I think I might have to draw the line there..

[Sunnywithshowers]

What's breastfeeding got to do with anything? FFS.

[Geckoandthemonkey]

YANBU I appall page 3 BUT women can be absolute b*atches too! They (we) can dig our own graves like men glory in saddism. Like, why can't/don't we manage to breastfeed our little ones anymore?