To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

[seeker]

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

I think most people do care about gender equality, as most people will know and care about someone who has been or is affected by gender inequality, just because they don't use that particular label doesn't mean they don't agree with feminist principles.

Also, like Pan I'd rather call myself equalist rather than feminist. In fact I'm pretty certain you and I have often been found on the same threads defending our reasoning behind not calling ourselves feminists.

What I find confusing is you pulling Pan up for not identifying as feminist and yet agreeing with some (even most) feminist issues. Which is why I asked if you could only be pro or against feminism? It is entirely possible to not be a feminist and yet agree with some of the views.

Same as it's possible to not be Christian and yet still agree with some views shared by Christians.

Actually, I think that article is a useful point of discussion.

The important point it needs to get across is "driving in unsuitable footwear is potentially dangerous.

But instead of writing an article about that they choose to focus it on ugg boots, which are almost always worn by women. Making it sound like a "women are causing traffic accidents" story. And thereby making sure that nobody actually gets the important message about driving in wellies! Bizarre.

I think most people do care about feminism. They just don't think it is feminism, because the term has been carefully portrayed over the years as being about lesbian disabled dwarves campaigning for a nuclear-free healthfood shop, as Ben Elton (I think?) once put it. It's a straw man argument, but it's been depressingly successful.

Rebecca West once said, "feminism is the radical notion that women are people." She also said, "I myself have never been able to find out what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute."

Pretty much my own experience, 60 years later.

Sorry I am coming back to this late after falling asleep after oppressing putting my representation of patriarchy son to bed.

Sig, if that is really what you think raising a son who is loving and kind and who respects women looks like I pity you.

I am also a step parent whose DH has a good relationship with his XP, but perhaps that is because he was able to maintain good communication with her because whilst his relationship with her (she met someone else) was over he respected her as a person and as the mother of his DD.

Sigmund, your post viciously attacking the poster who is raising her son to be respectful of Women was one of the most disturbing things I have read on here. She sounded like a wonderful Mother and your anger towards her was palpable.

So you are raising your sons to be hyper aware of their rights as "men"? Wow. I really pity you and them.

Oh here goes

[cue violins]

[wails, beats chest, pulls out hair ]

What about teh menz?

'viciously attacking'

Firstly, my post wasn't specifically aimed at anyone.

Secondly, 'viciously attacking'? How ridiculous,

'anger towards her was palpable'

I wasn't angry, so it was unlikely to be 'papable' (!)

'So you are raising your sons to be hyper aware of their rights as "men"? Wow. I really pity you and them.'

Emotive language bingo? Such waffle...

I don't need your pity, and my boys most certainly don't. You have no idea how I bring them up. FWIW I will be bringing them up to know that if they experience DV, it must be reported, otherwise they will be perpetuating the myth that DV is mostly perpetrated by men. To seek help for any mental health issues they may have, and not bottle it up. To be open - minded and see the world as it really is, not how they're told it is. I could go on...

If you have visions of some snarling, misogynistic bigots it says far more about you're skewed perceptions than mine.

YANBU, i wish more women were aware of discrimination & abuse.

I really really hate it when some women join in the abuse with the men; that has happened to me, i can't understand what certain women get out of facilitating or abetting the verbal abuse of other women (often it's dressed up as 'a joke' like a lot of bullying behaviour).

otherwise they will be perpetuating the myth that DV is mostly perpetrated by men.

Is it a myth? Honestly?

I'm not denying that men can be the victims of DV but can you direct me to the evidence that shows that men are not most often the perpetrators?

Do bear in mind most men DON'T report

Most women don't report either

OK, but: "For every three victims of partner abuse, for every three victims of domestic abuse and for every three victims of stalking - two will be female, one will be male.",

still tells me that more women are assaulted by male partners than vice versa; so it isn't a myth.

AF, I would expect a woman would be much more likely to report. I was terrified of what my ex would do, but I still reported.

'so it isn't a myth'

It is if the statistics aren't a true representation, which they usually aren't. One of my MIL's colleagues turned up with a gash across his head recently, his GF had thrown an ashtray at him. I asked her if he had reported it, she looked completely puzzled and said 'What for'? It just didn't occur to her.

SF, read the relationships threads, much time is spent on there pleading with women to report their violent partners

Not many of them do it

So much of DV is hidden, when perpetrated against both sexes, that trying to make meaningful comparisons is a waste of time

Sigmund If the statistics you linked to aren't accurate, what were you trying to prove by them? It just doesn't make any sense.

TBH, I am really puzzled by your angle in this debate. You seem to me to be saying that women are more violent than men, at least within relationships. Is that actually what you mean?

Oh for goodness sake DV in general is under-reported, but you'd have to be spectacularly in denial to think that women's violence towards men is greater than the converse.

Most decent parents bring their children up in a balanced way. We teach them to assert their rights while being aware of their privileges and responsibilities. It would be absurd for example to encourage children to report violence without the accompanying message that discouraged them from perpetrating violence.

Being the age I am and in the circles I mix, I've met a considerable amount of young men whose parents are feminists. Without exception they have grown up to be fantastically well-balanced young citizens who are respectful towards men and women. Many of them are in solid relationships that are mutually beneficial and supportive precisely because they saw equality in action in their parents' relationships. I've yet to meet one young man who was 'ashamed' of his gender or had problems with his sexual identity because of the politics of his parents. If you're looking for real myths - I'd suggest this notion that feminists are breeding men wearing cloaks of shame, is one of them.

Wonderful post Charbon you should feel proud [bsmile]

Sig, you might not have meant to attack me but that is how it felt.

I too will encourage my children to seek help if they need it and to be critical observers of their world. Not because they need to prove anything, but because it is a good way to live.

You seem really angry and it feels like there is something about this topic which is triggering that. I am sorry for your pain, but please step back and consider what you are saying. None of us are denying men experience DV, but women are clearly more likely (both in reported and unreported figures) to experience violence and threats due their sex than men.

Goodness me! I´ve spent all afternoon wading through this thread...I might well pass out! Haha
Firstly, I am disappointed that so many people who have excellent points to make are so easily led off the topic by trollish types and drawn into petty irrelevant squabbles! Jeez, just ignore the twits!
Secondly...my opinion on the OP is that it´s very sadly true...SO many women ignore it or are blissfully unaware of it thanks to lack of education and media coverage of these issues. Also, we females are brought up (or perhaps our XX chromosomes contribute- that old nature/nurture debate, eh?) to want to seem attractive and pleasing to, and be liked by men....so therefore, to argue our case with them, point out where they are being sexist and shock, horror call ourselves feminists shudder will immediately make us unattractive. I am yet to meet a man who isn´t immediately put off if I swing the conversation in this threatening direction.
And thirdly....when there are that many of our own kind willing to side against women who speak out about this (as has been so well demonstrated above...ahem..) can we HONESTLY expect men to change their attitudes? Why should they if, as it seems, the MAJORITY of women think everything is OK?
Depressing stuff....anyone care to cheer me up with some good news?

This make you feel better TheDreadedLurker?abcnews.go.com/blogs/lifestyle/2013/01/men-suffer-pregnancy-pains-in-labor-simulation/

Oh and may I just add, Sigmund I really think you are totally off the point....this is SO not about comparing what happens to men!

Haha....thanks Solidsnake!! Kudos to those two for at least TRYING

Well I'm beginning to feel more than a little 'ganged up upon' (that good old sisterhood, nothing changes), it's rather sad that I'm a lone voice in the defence of men and boys, but hardly surprising, given that they don't count.

Great silencing technique btw.

Laters.