To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

[seeker]

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

SigmundFraude There is a term for that, it's called benevolent sexism. Women are more likely to get custody of children because women are seen as gentler, more loving, more 'motherly' despite their personality, just because they are women. Feminist wants to eradicate this belief that all women are born mothers and which will (hopefully) lead to more equality in custody battles.

Oh, I think it's inevitable, an absolute certainty. Society is cyclical, and changing.

Feminists might. It's the rest of society you need to convince. It's just not going to happen. The majority of women want full custody of their kids, they just do. I have never yet met a woman who has said that they wanted shared custody. I know ones that have tried to erase their exes from their kids lives though.

As far as I'm concerned my sons' view of women starts with me, I'm an intelligent woman who I hope has their respect and love, dp is their strongest male role model and he still tells them that woman are difficult creatures, as if we are somehow a different species. It's tiring to keep reminding him to appreciate the effect that has and the message it sends. I want my sons to have relationships with people who are their equals.

I might as well say to a daughter that all men are filthy animals and if you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow.

yes, society is changing, thank the lord.

Children growing up now will have a v different expectation of what's fair and what isn't, for the better, imo. I see it now with my dd at 13 yo.She has hopes and aspirations well beyond those of my sisters. ( and won't put up with shit - we've taught her not to)The boys growing up now also have expectations, but they are equal to the girls, and won't have a sense of an automatic entitlement due to their sex.

Yes, Sigmund, some women are really horrible, as are some men. Gender has nothing to do with the horribleness. It is shorter to say "some people are horrible". That is the point, really.

Just wondering if everyone here has heard of the Ohio rape case? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257996/Ohio-football-rape-girl-boy-filmed-joking-laughing-fate-16-year-old-apologises.html

I know, I know, the Daily Mail, but it's awful :(

Don't you find though, that a lot of girls have a sense of automatic entitlement? The 'because I'm worth it generation'? I'm usually on my way back from school when I hear these girls banging on about how special they are, how many boys they turned down because they were too good, and discussing how the boys were humiliated by them.

'Yes, Sigmund, some women are really horrible, as are some men. Gender has nothing to do with the horribleness. It is shorter to say "some people are horrible". That is the point, really.'

But I get criticised for making that point. I'm out of order for making that point, it's bad form, it's whataboutthemenz etc.

Solid - yes, bloody horrific. A whole town colluding in victim blaming and covering up the crime. I think it was mentioned up thread, but it's probably a good thing to bring up again.

And have you never heard men being able to sell themselves into jobs, asking for pay rises, arguing with lecturers while women sit there saying nothing?

To me, that's the important stuff, not some teenage girls acting the goat.

I´ve turned up 2 days late to this party and was just reading through some of the earlier comments about Mary Beard so this is a bit off the present topic but anyway...just had to say, I googled her and was HORRIFIED!!
I mean ...I was expecting some grotesque scary beast with tangled nose hair, 4 chins and a wondering eye, for all the fuss that´s being made.
But this woman is, in my opinion, not at all bad looking! I think she looks....normal or even "above average", just natural and un-over-groomed!
This sooooo bodes madly for my plans for an active sex life after 50 if that is deemed unattractive....ffs!! So pissed off with society´s status quo right now....
OK, as you were...

'To me, that's the important stuff, not some teenage girls acting the goat.'

It would be extremely bloody important to you if it had been some teenage lads saying it. You wouldn't be quite so dismissive then.

But that's the sort of thing teenage lads say all the time! Just because there are girls who behave badly doesn't change cultural norms.

SigmundFraude Teenage lads DO say that. But replace "i'm too good for them" with "she's too much of a whore".

How do you know, Sigmund? What's the point in you saying that when you've no idea what my reaction would actually be? Teenagers act like dopes. It's sort of in the job description and I generally take anything they say with an extremely massive pinch of salt.

Sigmund - girls at school. Well, yes because they are young!! Besides, the level of really unpleasant nastiness towards girls/women by boys/men is toweringly outscoring the odd comment and competition from girls to boys. I was a school boy fwiw, as you were. And then 'growing up' happens?

yes just - as wonderful as dd is at 13yo, she can be a real dope and clueless. Which is fab, because I get to say "Well. As clever as you are...the thing is..." which she hates. Just a small pleasure of mine.

'What's the point in you saying that when you've no idea what my reaction would actually be?'

An educated guess. There is a thread about saying that women wear UGG boots is sexist for God's sake!! That surely must be the most pointless rant of the year.

Well, I didn't say anything about ugg boots, so not sure what that has to do with me. My only opinion on ugg boots is that they are minging in the extreme. I very much doubt anyone said they were sexist, but rather viewed them from a feminist perspective, which is a very different thing, but feel free to point me in the direction of the thread if you want to.

The thing about so-called "educated guesses" is they tend to be one and not the other. That is, a guess. You can't possibly extrapolate what I think from other things I think.

Pan Haha, when your 13 years old, you think you are so clever and then when you get older and look back, you realise how stupid you really were

UGG boots sexist? Eh?

Please don't minimise what I'm saying Pan. I was a schoolgirl, and girls vile behaviour went way beyond 'the odd comment and competition', believe me. In my experience as an 'oppressed' girl, the girls were far more oppressive and held far more power.

Feminist description of female 'oppression', well, in the words of Morrissey 'it says nothing to me about my life'.

SigmundFraude That was the complete opposite for me in my school. I can't count the number of times I was sexually harassed by boys. And I am a lot younger than you looking at your profile. But I guess everyone has different experiences?

You're minimising what everyone else is saying.

Just sayin.