To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

[seeker]

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

ediblewoman You sound like a fantastic mother

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1657378-to-be-pissed-off-with-my-brothers

I started this thread, and now I can see why I started it.

It's normally only 1 brother that walks me home, I suppose it was because I was seen as the weaker sex.

I think the penny is dropping.

No sorry I meant a glaringly obvious act of misogyny. I felt like I'd been smacked around the face though.

Solid Snake, aw shucks thanks

oh. Okay.
I have no idea about your work circs. BUT. Is it reasonable, or possible, to explain to your assailant how that act was experienced by you? In fairly simple terms. That you didn't deserve it, and hope it doesn't happen again.
fwiw if that happened in a public sector work place it would be so much easier, but I'm suspecting it wasn't? And garner some support from other colleagues?

Men's rights and responsibilities are eroded by patriarchichal structures and cultures though. For example, the right to take time out from a career to parent and the responsibility to share childcare; the right not to participate in the sex industry and not to be jeered at and derided for that stance; the right not to want sex all of the time or especially sex without feelings, without being made to feel like a freak of nature; the right not to be infantilised by society as being incapable of working a domestic appliance or to function for 24 hours without a woman's intervention.

However talking about men's rights in a patriarchical society is akin to appealing for white people's rights in South Africa circa 1965, or Britain in 1958.

Pan, why should she have to? Do men go round saying - oh what you said really devalued my masculinity etc at work?

Porto - no of course Pessimistic shouldn't have to do that at all. But if her self-esteem has been attacked by someone else, then she she has the utter right to point that out. And secure an apology at best.
Globally, no. But individually then yes. Just the fact that some man felt ok about doing that indicates the culture at work.

Agree with Charbon. I work for a technology company which is woefully under represented by women. But they focus on their diversity policy and work life balance though and in 7 years I have rarely experienced misogynistic behaviour from my colleagues. I could earn more money if I moved probably, but somethings are worth more than cold hard cash. And they ARE trying to encourage female graduates in...

A feminist son?? Is that so he can absorb even more shit about how privileged and oppressive he is? The fact that he's never harmed a woman in his life, but has to endlessly apologise for the few that do? A son who puts women's rights before his own? Well how nice. It might interest you to read posts by sons of feminists, a few end up normal, a few end up as MRA's and a few end up having no identity, apologising forever. Whatever floats your boat ( and lets be clear, it is yours, not your sons).

Maybe when a feminist loses access to her grandkids, due to her sons divorce (usually instigated by the woman), and feels the devastation that causes she might reconsider how fucking privileged her son is. Or will she just blame him.

Employment-wise, I'd invest in the 'meritocracy' theory, a bit in terms of sex-employment. At it's plainest, it strips away the comfortableness of who-knows-who, and focusses on who is best at what.
I BIG downside though is the female experience of caring for others outside of work, be it children or other relatives, which still places women, generally at the disadvantage.

Why would she lose access to her grandchildren because of her son's divorce, Sigmund?

Surely, her son, as a feminist, would negotiate access with his XW. He may even share the parenting, or be the RP. The feminist mother would the be able to see her grandchildren when they were with her son, if she did not have a good enough relationship with her XDIL

As you know, it is very rare for fathers not to be granted access to their children, and this would usually be in cases of domestic violence.

Here, have some reading material SigmundFraude whoneedsfeminism.tumblr.com/#

Sigmund - I don't think any son of a feminist has to end up so bitter and twisted. I think the adult son to whom you are referring ( theoretically?) can make his own choices about how he treats people.

I have no idea or awareness of the testomonies of sons of feminists you refer to. My own experience of me and my friends is that children of aware and assertive parents ( dads and mums) who inculcate a respect for others have a generally good start in life, which they then develop. The nightmare you describe of a 'characterless' being is no fault of feminism per se. Just often bad parenting in not encouraging them to express their individuality.

So, by bringing my son up to respect women as equal members of the human race, I'm dooming him to a future of "having no identity, apologising forever". Well I never.

Seriously, what an utterly bonkers view to hold about feminism. (And about men).

Sigmund I'm posting as a male and 'non-feminist', so am 'clear' of the possibly-alleged indoctrination of 'male guilt' tripping.

the question is why do many relationships fail after having a child.

from reading alot of threads on MN, i have this image. When a couple has a baby on either becomes a sahm or on maternity leave her partner Changes and so does the dynamics of the relationship.

where household chores and childcare should be split, many poster has came on MN as a whole saying DH/DP doesn't help with the housework or will not get up with the baby as he has work the next morning or still act like prechildren by going out and coming home in the early hours ect.

'Surely, her son, as a feminist, would negotiate access with his XW. He may even share the parenting, or be the RP. The feminist mother would the be able to see her grandchildren when they were with her son, if she did not have a good enough relationship with her XDIL'

Yes, in the fantasy realm you inhabit, this might happen. No, it is not usually in the case of DV.

The only one living in a fantasy realm is you, Sigmund

Well, on the contrary Sigmund - the DV would have to so extreme, and markedly have a severe impact on the child(ren) that contact would be forbidden. Many, many cases exist where the father DV perpetrator gets access, despite every fibre of common sense and safeguarding saying 'no'.

I don;t think , fwiw, the example you are providing for your case is the 'best' one.

Pan, I think you're being deliberately obtuse. I don't know what to make of you at all. You say you're a non-feminist, but you certainly show enough interest and agreement in feminism them to think that you are very supportive.

Really, I can't be arsed to debate this any more. It's pretty apparent to me that feminism freed women, in a few generations we'll be back in our cage. So thanks for that.

I don't feel any need to apologise for the many women who are not feminists, or who collude with the patriarchy. In the same way, I don't expect my son to apologise for the men who perpetuate the patriarchy either. He will, I hope grow up to be an adult man who can care for himself, and care for his family- and, if that family breaks up, care for his children and make decisions which will be the best for them. And who will be able to recognise bullshit when he sees it.

Sigmund - I don't think I'm being obtuse at all. I'm being fairly plain and direct, I thought, really.
fwiw, of course I am 'supportive' of feminism, and do that every day. But that isn't a requirement to suggest some faults in your arguments. That's all.

It's not just DV

karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2012/03/23/parentectomy-the-silent-killer-in-court-2/

"I don't know what to make of you at all." Neither do I at times.

tbh though, the prospect of returning to a cage is odd and not really a likelihood.