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To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

806 replies

seeker · 22/01/2013 21:31

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 23/01/2013 15:48

As much as I wouldn't like to be called 'out of touch yellow toothed foul smelling' or a 'stanchion of male hierachy', I don't think that's sexist, is it? And threats of violence aren't sexist, unless the nature of the violence is explicitly sexual. Like rape, for example.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 23/01/2013 15:49

mmm, yes, of course misogyny doesn't exist. That's why woman's earnings are the same as men's. That's why the incredibly rare event of sexual violence is prosecuted so effectively and treated so seriously by the courts. That's why so many of our major companies are run by femal chief execs.
oh wait ....

doyouwantfrieswiththat · 23/01/2013 15:56

25 years ago I was probably one of those women in denial, because misogyny was the norm for me. I just didn't see it, because enabling it allowed me to have a relationship of sorts with my family, I thought I had equality because I could vote and the world was my oyster, I didn't realise I was already scuppered by the complete lack of self confidence that 18 years of not being listened to and low expectations had created.

I'm older and hopefully wiser now so when my dp tells my sons not to cry like girls I will bloody well tell him it's not acceptable.

ShamyFarrahCooper · 23/01/2013 15:56

Men are not judged entirely based on whether they've had sex or not, except to decide on if they get issued with their 'man card'.

Women are virtuous, pure etc whilst a virgin.

After that we are 'used goods, sloppy seconds' etc etc.

Care to explain the difference?

Susan2kids · 23/01/2013 16:01

This reply has been deleted

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KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 23/01/2013 16:04

"These are precisely the people who are incapable of actually discussing anything rationally. KarlosK Krinlebeim thats you."

I'm not the one issuing capitalised rants, me dear. Care to address the facts I raised? Or are they inconvenient for you?

AbigailAdams · 23/01/2013 16:04

We don't deny that it happens to men Susan. It happens to women more. The vitriol is almost always sex based. It happens for doing very little at all.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 23/01/2013 16:10

Yes, point us to those, Susan, and point me to where the feminists are in favour of such posts. Nobody thinks cutting off balls is ok, you know.

Sorry to froth, obviously.

AbigailAdams · 23/01/2013 16:13

And I wonder why you really aren't seeing the power dynamic between men and women; opressor:oppressed; intimidator:reactionary;

AbigailAdams · 23/01/2013 16:14

God knows where that smiley came from. It was supposed to say oppressor : oppressed

slug · 23/01/2013 16:18

Once more with feeling

JustAHolyFool · 23/01/2013 16:21

What Abigail said at 1604.

perfectstorm · 23/01/2013 16:38

"Actually the original poster said this "What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women?" thats what I answered. BOth are sexist. You cant claim one is acceptable and the other is not. unless of course you have zero interest in equality."

Neither are acceptable. Aggression and hate is unacceptable, full stop. But we none of us are an island - nobody lives in a cultural vacuum. The reality is that we live in a world where women are judged and treated more harshly and less equitably than men. It's just a reality. And there are very few men indeed who have their balls cut off, so while it's a horrible thing to say, no, it does not have equivalence with threats to rape/assertions that someone should be, because rape is extremely common. It's a genuine fear, and a soundly based one. Fear of castration is not.

Nobody is saying men should be treated unpleasantly or badly, or that aggression or abuse is ever justified. It's a totally false dichotomy to raise. What people are saying is that we live in a culture where abuse is more commonly aimed at women, that judgemental attitudes to sexual activity are almost exclusively aimed at women, where women are paid less, represented less in positions of power and authority... and that when a woman asserts herself, as Mary Beard did, the reaction is extremely punitive, and based almost entirely on her gender. And that agressive, violent attacks on women by men are more common by a large margin than those on men by women. By the same token, a huge insult aimed by men at other men is to call them by female names. That's not something you see reversed. Homophobia is equal, agreed - a pansy/faggot is happily hurled in the same way lezzie is. So yes, homophobia is an equal-op hate. But even there, the insult to a man is to imply femininity, whereas to a woman, it's to attack her attractiveness. Which is back to what women and men are valued for, and what we regard as the ultimate insult.

Emsyboo · 23/01/2013 16:43

What perfectstorm said

seeker · 23/01/2013 16:52

And I can't actually bring to mind a case when a man has been the object of public vitriol without having done something more than expressing a reasonably mainstream opinion. And even then, the public vitriol is never of such an overtly violent and sexual nature.

OP posts:
whiteflame · 23/01/2013 16:57

It's definitely something that you become more aware of as you get older. I remember my first real taste of it was when I got married and didn't change my name. The vitriol with which a number of people commented on this was a real eye opener.

Since then I've noticed the little things a lot more. Read an article in the paper a few mornings ago, with a female psychologist claiming that children can thrive on quality attention just in the evenings, so working mothers don't need to feel guilty anymore. All presented as promoting equal rights, argh!!

Susan2kids · 24/01/2013 15:22

Perfect Storm I entirely disagree that women are subject to more verbal abuse based around gender than men I say that's bollocks....a phrase used by women without thinking all the time, I also find it entirely disingenuous that the same posters have to claim Macho isnt insulting (despite that being pretty much the meaning) then claim that hysterical is sexually degrading because of its roots. You also seem to be entirely avoiding the point raised that calling a woman manly is seen as insulting by women. I have more than once heard women attacking other women for their masculine appearance or simply 'sitting like a man' This does not mean i disagree with the other areas you mention but their is a tendency for my own sex to scream 'oh poor me im so abused by language' when in fact its one of the few areas thats actually fairly equitable and the offence taken is our choice. (PLEASE NOTE THIS IN NO WAY CONDONES THE THREATS MADE TO MARY BEARD) Incidentally the terms Gay, and Faggot and Pansy have no implication about femininity. I find these arguments a bit silly when there are far more serious things to talk about...it reminds me of the women insisting that male chauvinists force women into high heels.....actually its a fashion we co-opted from men. Who also wore stockings before us. Its about female perception....why is cunt more offensive than prick? Because women choose to say it is.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 24/01/2013 15:24

I couldn't disagree more with your last sentence.

Incidentally, why did you use the word "scream"?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/01/2013 15:28

You think 'pansy' doesn't have an implication about femininity? Confused

How did you work that one out then? It's an offensive term for an effeminate/homosexual man. It's offensive because it implies being gay is bad, and bad because it makes men like women.

Cunt isn't more offensive than prick because 'women choose to say it is'. I think you will find that both men and women use that term, and that women aren't solely responsible for the evolution of language.

FelicityWasCold · 24/01/2013 16:24

Having a go at women for being 'manly' or 'sitting like a man' is slightly different to calling a man effeminate..

It's holding women to a standard of behaviour that is deemed wrong for men, and suggests women are not entitled to the same privileges as men- sitting comfortably, going without make up etc..

Also men who are effeminate are told to stop it because other men don't like it. Whereas unladylike women are told to stop it because men won't like it .

AbigailAdams · 24/01/2013 16:26

You don't seem to like women very much Susan.

Susan2kids · 24/01/2013 16:50

Ariel, I think youll find the word scream has nothing to do with gender either. I use it in the same sense ill use it about a child having an illogical tantrum. Incidentally ive accused men of screaming too. Im so glad you disagree with the last sentence, perhaps you'd actually care to say why rather than just stating something? I had hoped to find some reasoned debate on this board.

LRD pansy is a flower, why would assume it has anything to do with women? Ah...its because you view flowers as effeminate......how incredibly sexist of you. :)....note that the sexism in the assumption is yours and not mens. Again thats your decision. Ill take this further because i think you may actually be looking to debate.....I have never heard a man say that prick is less offensive than cunt. Offence is taken by someone it can't be 'given', YOU have to be offended, YOU said that cunt was more offensive YOU are a WOMAN, you have not otherwise justified your view that this is the case in any way you have simply started it as a false given. YOU have CHOSEN to find it more offensive than prick, cock or dick.....You a WOMAN are then telling ME also a WOMAN that i should find it more offensive...you then seem outraged that I disagree, I call both men and women cunts and dicks equality is the aim......do you have a single logical reasoned justification for your view? If we constantly seek out examples of how terribly unfair things are that blatantly are not we will always feel oppressed....

Felicity. SO let me get this straight its OK to call a woman butch as an insult but its abhorrent for men to call a man effeminate because.....erm.....youve decided that you know how men think and are therfore basing this around your assumption of a male mindset.........yes.......explanation of your point would be great.

Abigail, that is clearly the comment of someone who disagrees with me but cant express herself in any convincing way and is seeking a blanket slur on me as a poster instead. I do report deliberate personal attacks kindly engage properly with the discussion or cease posting.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/01/2013 16:54

Oh ... you're trying to be funny.

Fair enough.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 24/01/2013 17:00

I can't be bothered. I tried, as did others more than I did actually, to have reasoned debate yesterday before the thread was derailed by morons. I shouldn't have commented again.

But you don't hear the word "scream" used about blacks, Jews, gays etc when they are discussing oppression. It would be incredibly offensive. Nor do you hear men described as screaming when they are debating something.

I agree with Abigail. You don't seem to like women much.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 24/01/2013 17:01

Incidentally, there is a bold and italics option if you'd like to emphasise something.