Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

No, I am saying that all buses should have a dedicated wheelchair space which the blocking of should be a fixed penalty ticket able offence. That in order to achieve that without unnecessarily shitting on another vulnerable group of people including disabled people who don't use a wheelchair and have to rely on the bus they need to provide a pram space as well.

Offered, it is already possible to award penalties if a complaint is made and sustained.

You seem to be over looking the fact that some pushchair users may be genuinely unable to fold their pram tho. I don't like the massive assumption that this must mean they are self entitled arseholes

Are you jumping back onto your original track now then? Which side of the fence are you on, because I can't work it out from your posts. It seems like you're on the same side as Offred but don't want to be seen to be on it so jump back over when anyone is looking.

Yes, the wheelchair space which doesn't take up much room on the bus should only be for wheelchairs in order to make buses a more reliable form of transport for wheelchair users. It practically guarantees a space only not if there is already another wheelchair user on the bus. What exactly is wrong with that?

In reality they are because not everybody can fold... Why is that reasonable but a dedicated wheelchair space is unreasonable. I think you are just trying to hate me now./.

I'm not back pedalling I get off the bus that's my choice however I don't automatically assume other pram users who don't are arsehole or self entitled if they shout swear or kick off I do.

What if like me you have to use a big, supportive chair, would I take up too much room IYO offered?

I don't get the question no little, the wheelchair spaces are big for exactly that reason no little, and that is why the pram spaces are small.

I can't believe this is still going.

Offred - it's perfectly clear that Maryz understands your post but doesn't agree with you.

1. Yes, it might be better if there were dedicated pram spaces as well as dedicated wheelchair spaces. But in a number of areas there are currently

not dedicated pram spaces. This is reason to campaign for these spaces if you feel strongly - not a reason to use to say someone should not vacate a space for a wheelchair.

This is a separate issue to enforcement of existing wheelchair priority spaces. And if people continued to behave the way they do now with the wheelchair space, probably won't solve much if there are two prams on the bus (one in the wheelchair place) and a wheelchair user needs it.

1. The fact that there are not dedicated pram spaces does not mean that wheelchair spaces are currently multi-use. Prams are allowed to use them unless a wheelchair needs to, but they are there for, and give priority for wheelchair users.

1. If a wheelchair user needs to use the space then any pram there must fold up or get off the bus. If people did that now then there would not be a problem and no need for these policies to be considered.

1. No one has agreed with an outright ban on prams. The only way this will be necessary is if people don't vacate the space when needed.

1. This policy targets prams because it seems as though they cause the vast majority of the problem. Pianos etc should also be moved under the same circumstances.

1. Some people may have problems folding a pram. Again, this is a reason for campaigning for pram spaces. Not a reason to deny wheelchair users their right to use the space.

This is why I asked, your statement:

Yes, the wheelchair space which doesn't take up much room on the bus should only be for wheelchairs

HTH

That's all well and good Mary but that is the current situation and like it or not it sets up competition between two people who need a bus, yes, parents could campaign for pram spaces and in that time they would still need to use a bus and lots of them would simply sit in the wheelchair space whether they had disability issues or not in reality that is what will continue to happen in practice in those multi-use wheelchair spaces and when parents are forced to travel by bus at least to hospitals if nothing else.

Maryz I obviously can't speak for all pram users, and have rarely seen the issue arise, but when I have the pram users got off the bus. Where I live there is a notice telling you if a wheelchair user needs the space you need to either fold your buggie or leave the bus - with a ticket for onward travel. Has taken some years for the bus company to reach this point. Staying on the bus without vacating the space is not an option.

And not everyone can fold a pushchair. That is kind of like saying if you occasionally use a wheelchair you should leave it behind in case someone in greater need needs the wheelchair space, not everyone who occasionally uses a wheelchair can do this.

You can reasonably enforce a dedicated wheelchair space as long as there is actually a space for prams.

As I said, campaign for prams then. I campaigned for wheelchair spaces. As for enforcing as long as there are spaces for prams; just take a long walk off a short pier will you.

Because in the scale of the bus it is not a big sacrifice to have a dedicated wheelchair space, wheelchair spaces are larger than pram spaces but smaller than buses HTH no little...

Iggis are you in a city? Only asking because rules tend to be more strongly enforced than in the provences. I think a lot of that is to create a good impression to visitors an tourists IME

No need to get sarky because your not winning Offered, you asked me why I asked you the question and I showed you. Less of the tone thanks. Perhaps you wouldn't be getting narked if you articulated you ideas in a clearer way,

're

Reasonably enforce is different to being reasonable to enforce.

Wheelchair users currently have priority to use the space, this is about how this is not enforced, what makes you think it would be enforced if the problem is being caused by the lack of a dedicated wheelchair space/a space for prams. That's why it will change nothing, just make everyone mad.

And not everyone can fold a pushchair. That is kind of like saying if you occasionally use a wheelchair you should leave it behind in case someone in greater need needs the wheelchair space, not everyone who occasionally uses a wheelchair can do this.

No it isn't. What a bizarre notion.

Ha, ironic nolittle. I merely repeated your sarc at you...