to think that my sister is too soft with her daughter

[pinkandred]

Ive cooked xmas dinner today for 15. 9adults and 6 children. My sisters daughter is 7 and has a gluten intollerance. Aside from that, she basically seems to eat when she feels like it. She has no set mealtimes and if she doesnt fancy eating at normal family mealtimes she carries on playing and they will cook for her when she decides she's hungry.

For xmas dinner today, I had bought and cooked separate gluten free food that looks exactly the same as everyone elses food on the plate. She decided she didnt want any of it and left the table to go and play on the wii. My sister and her dh didnt say anything and continued to eat. She asked me to put the wii on but I refused and said I would put it on when everyone had finished their xmas dinner. I asked her dd to come back in and to at least try some of the turkey but she refused. My sister then told her that she could play on the ipad until xmas dinner was finished and then aunty xxx (me) would put the wii on for her.

Straight after dinner when all the clearing up had been done, she complained she was hungry and asked me for the desert (which, again, I had bought alternative gluten free desert for her). She didnt eat that either and proceeded to eat handfuls of nuts and haribos.

I'm completely pissed off that I spent money on gluten free food which I should have known she wouldnt eat. But then for her to be allowed to leave the table and play on the wii when the other children were sat well behaved eating their dinner really annoyed me. We have an open plan living/kitchen area so the other children could see her playing.

do people really say that?that you have to be excused?sounds very victorian to me.i think its nice when everyone sits together but i believe it shoould be a choice,not a rule.

I think because your dcs are good eaters, you find it difficult to understand that she 'woyldnt even try' the food. My dd is like this, and will vomit if forced to eat food she doesn't want to.

I also dont think your Bruce should be made to show gratitude to her family catering for her dietary needs...your said could maybe have thanked you though

The point I do agree with...is sitting at the table until the meal is done. But again, my dd1 can't tolerate sitting at a table (or being in the room) if there is fish...so maybe there is also an explanation for her lack of sitting at the table. (actually, unless there was fish you wouldn't persuade my 7 yo to not stay at the table for the chatting and crackers!)

I think Christmas dinner and big group meal expectations are very different. My dd messed around with crackers and drinks so much I ended up re heating her dinner as it was disgustingly cold, something that would not happen any other day of the year. And she nearly ate a morsel. I ended up letting her up from the table again something else that would not happen on any other day. But I generally don't make a big song and dance over meals and rules. Dd knows what is expected and is generally well mannered and behaved around the meal table weather she eats it or not is not an issue.

I do think an allergy makes all the difference, my as a small child had a lactose intolerance, fairly mild but significant enough to make her anxious when eating any where else other than home, incase she became unwell. My expectations then where where very lax if I'm honest as I could understand her fears and so in order to make an issue then I would carry on with mu meal and not make a fuss regardless if dd ate or not or left the table or not. It's unfair to force a child to sit at the table when they are fearful of the repercussions of a mistake that could potentially make them ill, or differences that will make them stand out.

do people really say that?that you have to be excused?sounds very victorian to me.

Really? We have always asked, all generations, to be excused from the table. In our family, it's basic good manners. But then, so are the clearly quaint concepts of politeness to ones hostess, the love of social gatherings round mealtimes, the societal duty we have as parents to ensure our children are pleasant thoughtful citizens who put the general enjoyment of others above and beyond personal whim, and lastly to respect someone else's new present.

But reading some of this thread, it would seem I am horribly old fashioned. Tables? Mealtimes? Pshaw!

OP IMO YANBU and you and your kids sound very polite and patient in the face of bad manners.

I think if she didn't want to eat food that was expensive for you to buy then the poster above has it spot on, get her mum to bring it next year.

We're generally pretty strict but on Christmas day, actually, less so. I've also never had a problem explaining to my kids that when it comes to manners other kids can be fucking spoilt other families choose to do things differently. I'd rather a kid got down from the table tbh than sat with a face like doom on her, picking at her expensive food. Though I might think about alternative arrangements next year.

Ambersocks, when you say it should be a choice, what do you mean? I'm having visions of you asking your children 'would you like to sit at the table with everyone else or do you prefer to play on the Wii?' ???

Op YANBU, I have various friends whose children don't know what it is to sit at a table to eat. I think it's really sad that many parents don't put a value on this. Children learn so much from sitting around a table with the family enjoying a meal all together. But like everything else, they need to be taught how to do it and once they know and can do it, the expectations should be set such as not leaving the table without asking first etc.

I'm interested to know what it is that they might learn better from sitting formally at a table, than sitting informally on a sofa, or something like that.

If it's a question of learning how to sit at a table formally then really, the importance of that as an acquired skill depends on the value you place on formal eating. iyswim

and I place almost no value on formal eating. I know some people do and my children are always being told how lovely and polite they are, especially at school or with adults - not doing things in a traditional, formal way does not always equate with rude, antisocial children.

I'm probably far ruder and less socially adapted than they are, in certain ways at least, and I was drilled in table eating from a very young age.

Actually what I learned from table eating with my extended family was that they all disliked each other but had to pretend to be nice, for the sake of it.

And that you shouldn't put your elbows on the table,
and that if you knocked something over it was a disaster.

And that you were trapped there as it was 'rude' to go and do something else, even if you had finished,

and that everyone could see if you didn't like something or didn't want to eat it. And would be offended.

I can't think of ANYthing good or useful that I learned from this experience. In terms of manners and taking turns to speak and listening to people, well, I think that came from other experiences and situations, not these excrutiating mealtimes.

JMO experience obviously. Others will have been far nicer.

YANBU OP. DS is 6 and uber fussy but he knows that his end of the deal is to sit at the table, make polite conversation, eat the bits he likes and keep quiet about the rest.

Doesn't seem too much to ask of a 7 year old.

Rooney - eating together is about sharing a pleasurable moment with others. Most people love eating and the joy of eating is increased when the pleasure is shared with others.

Social skills are enhanced as children mix with adults, can join in with conversations, banter etc. There is a lot of bonding within the family when this happens (arguments forgotton for a while, moods dispersed for a bit). I came from a completely informal family with no set meal times etc but we all liked to eat together for Sunday lunch. I don't know anyone that never enjoys that sort of thing.

Other skills learnt include being able to eat at a restaurant, being able to sit with others (at a pub as well as at table) and not fiddle with phones etc but be able to talk and engage with others. Be able to have conversation with others outside peer group. Not develop unseemly habits (eating with open mouth!).

Of course, life offers plenty of opportunities for these skills to develop but it's just really nice to have this at home too.

To add to the list, this sounds really patronising, but learning to eat properly with a knife and fork. Food scoffed in front of the telly normally involves hands or maybe a fork. You're sit cramped up watching TV and not engaging properly with others. As a teen, my snooty headmistress stood up in the school canteen to tell everyone how to eat with a knife (not stick it into your mouth!). At the time I thought this was patronising but having gone back to same school and seen the same eating habits I can see her point. You learn basic (note, I'm not talking formal here) table manners by eating with adults. For example, you're having lunch with your boss and start licking your knife - this isn't going to win any favors!

That's totally fair enough if you enjoy it. I wish I had had that experience but sadly it wasn't something I ever looked forward to.

I think that's about my own family set up more than anything. I agree you can learn those things from what you describe, but as you also say, they can be learned by other means, in other/alternative situations too and that's what I'm doing with my own children.

I think it depends on what you prefer. I just would always hesitate to insist on a child staying at the table when they clearly didn't want to, as it can be counterproductive (vis my own ED which still persists, even though I'm not severely anorexic any more)

It probably is much more to do with the family dynamic and other stuff, but still - I'm always careful how I handle food/eating/social crossovers in the light of what happened to me, iyswim.

x posts - yes of course, that stuff is important in certain situations in life. But mine still learn about how to eat politely, and still use a knife as well as a fork (well the older one does). You don't necessarily need a table for that!

No, of course you don't need a table. I had a teenage bout of not eating and for a while excluded myself from family meals. It never became very serious (thankfully) but I suppose I reacted to this in the opposite way. Normalising food, sharing the experience, making it an important sharing moment. Though, on a day-to-day basis I don't know how people do it with young children (all eat together). I can't imagine myself doing it with my DC before they are 5 because as you say, the most important thing is the eating doesn't become a stressful event .

when i say they have a choice i mean i say its dinner now,serve up the food on the table and if they want to come they come,if they come in ten minutes thats fine,if they dont want it then i leave itout as long as it stays nice then it gets thrown away.

they have their own fruit bowl,space in the ccuboard and fridge where they can snack as much as they like so if they want somethung later on they either get something from there or ask me and i make them something.

like i have said before,if we both worked a lot and the kids were at school all day then mealtimes together would be more important as we wouldnt see eachother much,but we spend quality time together in other ways and eat out a lot at weekends so its fine.

the most important thing is the eating doesn't become a stressful event

Exactly! If children see a mealtime as a social occasion and are able to join in accordingly, the food itself becomes almost secondary to the experience. I have seen too many girls learn early what a weapon food can be, when parent and child collude in making the table a battleground, and can understand parents who lived through this finding the whole occasion stressful and perhaps unwittingly passing that worry down.

My own children were always included at family meals, from babyhood, and even as teens they love food and, equally, the rituals if preparation, discussion, invitation and enjoyment. They recently invited several friends (13years) to a curry supper. One had finished eating before we were all served and took himself upstairs to play on the x-box as he simply couldn't see the point of staying; missed eating, the jokes and fun and the board games. They all just felt really sorry and awkward for him that he'd never learned to enjoy eating as an occasion. They don't want to invite him back.

when i say they have a choice i mean i say its dinner now,serve up the food on the table and if they want to come they come,if they come in ten minutes thats fine,if they dont want it then i leave itout as long as it stays nice then it gets thrown away.

Is this really what happens? It makes me feel very sad at the waste of effort, money, food and the chance to connect over food. To me, it's one of the greatest pleasures in life!!

Amber perhaps you can afford to throw food away that isn't eaten. To alot of people that may seem a total waste. Also don't you get frustrated that you have prepared a meal which your dc haven't eaten then you have to make them something else later.

My DC do make themselves snacks and stuff now they are older but they usually come and eat a meal at the table with us.

No not really,if its something that can be saved then i do and then i have it for lunch the next day!I guess if money was a problem i may feel differently but i doubt it.

Silver,as i sad before,for lots of people the main meal of the day is the inly chance to connect but we are together all the time so we connectinlots ofways,not justover food.

They do eat with us a lot but i like that they do that when they have a choice not to,much nicer than them being there just because its dinner time and i said so.

I appreciate its not for everyone and also its a small part of alarger parenting philosophy but it works well for us and the kids are amazing eaters and dont have any hang ups about food,they dont get over excited when they see sweets and they dont turn their nose up at green veg,because they can have what they want when they want.

"DS2 cannot do it - he cannot sit at the table with food in front of him once he is done eating. It upsets him and always has. Once he is done, he needs to leave the table."

It would upset 99.9% of children too. They would rather leave the table for something more fun but most people would teach their children about society's expectations, politeness and manners, although I am shocked by the percentage on here who obviously think this is unimportant.

The special diet is irrelevant.

I think many people doubt the importance of making a small child sit with adults watching them eat.

Age 7 is not a small child and the Op was not suggesting forcing them to eat but was expecting them to join in with the rest of the children, who could understandably be put off their own meal watching another child "have more fun".

SIL should have more consideration for others. It was rude to put her own childs wants first, without taking into account the other children. Fine to let her get down if there were only adults sitting at the table.

Amber, "the kids are amazing eaters and dont have any hang ups about food,they dont get over excited when they see sweets and they dont turn their nose up at green veg,"

Mine too, but not because they have what they want, when they want, but because they have been brought up to respect the effort and love that goes into putting food onto the table, the customs and rituals, the privilege of having enough good food to eat and the company of others to enjoy it, as well as the responsibility towards family and guests to put all at ease by sitting together showing respect and appreciation.

I really think we lose something valuable with a snacking individual generation, and I have seen how uncomfortable these kids are when they are unable or unwilling to be part of an ancient ritual.

I am pleased that my children have these pleasures in their lives and that they learn from and enjoy the experience of breaking bread with other generations and families.

i thinkyou need to consider that left to their own devices,children dont always do the opposite of what you want them to do.

my kids do all of what you just said regularly,not 3 times a day but nearly every day,and they are totally comfortable in those situations,because they enjoy them and have never been forced.

I'm sure that may be so and I do not advocate 'forcing' anything; my point was more that these occasions are for everyone. Being part of them is both a responsibility and a pleasure.

We have, as you remark, clearly very different ways of parenting. Should both our sets of children attend a special meal at someone else's house, remain at the table throughout, converse and have fun, eat the meal they were offered and not demand special attention, special food after refusing what had been prepared for them, respect the belongings and feelings of their hosts, then there are clearly more than one ways to skin a cat!