To have discplined my SILs children as she was doing nothing...??

[Shinyballsandtinsel]

Two days ago, DH, me, our three DCs (9, 11, 13), granny, SIL and her two DCs went out for a meal in the evening (early about 7.00pm) for one of granny's landmark birthdays. We went to a chain pub, which later on turns into a club with bouncers on the door, no children after 9pm etc. It is in a town well known for stag/hen nights, however this time of year it is mostly Christmas parties.

It was very very busy, behind our table there were two long tables of about twenty people each, which looked like work do's. The bar was also very busy - there were steps leading down to the restaurant bit from the bar.

Our food arrived quite quickly. When we had finished our meal, we were waiting for the staff to bring plates for the birthday cake. My SILs older DC started running around and around the table very fast (aged 5yrs). SIL sat there doing nothing. Then the her younger DC started doing it also (aged 3yrs), whilst they were running the 3 year old ran into the legs of a fully laden waitress who nearly dropped all her plates. SIL still just sat there. They were running within close proximity of the people sitting on the end of the work do tables.

SIL was completely oblivious to it all, so I grabbed the 3yr old on his next run around, and plonked him down on a chair beside me, and said in quite a firm voice "sit down now, those people are having their dinner and Granny is about to have her cake". He immediately burst into tears, SIL glared at me, grabbed him on her lap. The 5 year old continued to run around the table, and then ran up the steps on her own into the bar area, my DH went to get her back, when she arrived back he put her onto her chair, she immediatley slid off under the table and started the running around thing again.

They have behaved like this before, I often make excuses for not going out when they are going to be there, as the children's behaviour, or rather the mother's complete oblivion to their behaviour actually winds me up. In the past she also literally just sits there whilst her children run around other people's tables, talk to strangers eating, ask if they can try some of their food (I kid you not!) and generally act as if they are in a playground. SIL has said in the past she thinks it cheers people up to see her kids smiley faces, and they are so freespirited and cute nobody could get annoyed with them..... Hence why I usually make my excuses, but as it was granny's landmark birthday couldn't get out of it.

Anyway, the saga continues - we all take it in turns to do Christmas dinner, this year is SILs turn to do it at her house. Today DH has received a telephone call to say that we are no longer invited for christmas day, as SIL is upset that I took it upon myself discipline her child, and it will ruin their Christmas if I do so again.

I am of the opinion that I am quite pleased not to have to go around there, and am happy to break away from the big family Christmas and start having Christmases at home with just our family, but Granny has now rung up very upset, and asked DH if I can apologise and make an excuse, i.e. say I was stressed at work or something.

I am not happy to do this, as I am not sorry. AIBU to not aplogise even though it will probably upset MIL?

SugaricePlumFairy puts it perfectly.

IMO, SIL is cross not because her DCs were 'disciplined' and/or upset, but because the OP showed her up publicly by taking control of her children when she wasn't doing it herself. There are few people more righteously indignant than those who know they are in the wrong.

Shiney, with hindsight, perhaps you could have asked your SiL a leading question like "Shall I get them to sit down, or will you?" before you intervened, to let her know her DCs' behaviour was unacceptable, but give her the opportunity to sort it out herself...

You have said she is your friend, so it is probably worth an open, honest conversation... Perhaps along the lines of "I don't want to fall out about this, but if you don't want me 'disciplining' your children, you will need to do it more often yourself".

Your anecdote about the Lego digger brought back an old, old memory: my parents had friends like your BIL/SIL, and they and their children came to our house one Christmas when I was about 8. I had built a little house from Plasticine - with tiny, meticulous details like curtains in the windows and a pot of flowers on the windowsill, only a couple of millimetres high. :) It had taken me hours, over several days, and I had just finished it that morning. Their PFB found it, said "Wassat?" and instantly splatted it. :( :( I was sooooo upset. I went to my dad, who spoke to the parents, who totally failed to discipline their son at all I can remember wanting the boy (at least) flayed alive! I remember a conversation with my dad later about spoilt children spoiling things for other people, and the friends were only invited to 'adult' parties from then on - their children never came to our house again. And you can tell what an impression it made because I still feel a bit sad and angry about my squashed Plasticine house 40 years later!

So granny might want to you make amends with SiL, but your own DC will probably be grateful if you draw a line.

I've stopped a runaway toddler from running into the road before but luckily for me the Mum was just grateful. But then she did see the entire event and the danger.

WhereYouLeftIt - no I don't pander to people, generally.

But neither do I adopt the 'like it or lump it' whatever the fallout attitude that prevails in many and AIBU thread. I don't expect anyone else to parent the way i do, I would grab a child and whick it out of immediate danger, but I don't take it upon myself to feel 'embarrassed' by the bahviour of OTHER people's children and to then do something to save MY embarrassment.

Actually, I don't think it is fine to let kids tear round tables in restaurants, and if children are disturbing my peace to eat a meal I may kindly and politely ask them / their parents to stop it.

But if I inadvertently upset another parent by intervening, I would explain myself and apologise, especially when the ramilfications affect the wider family.

I just think the whole combatitive 'I'm right, and I will concede nothing' approach is patroninsing to other adults, and often hostile, and no wonder there are so many threads about friction within families.

And as for all this 'lazy parenting leading to badly behaved children so it HAS to be said' approach by many posters - well what is the result? The OP's intervention has not made any difference and now she is even less likely to be able to have a good influence on her DNs.

The trouble is, who has the right to judge whether my children are being disciplined "properly"? A few years ago someone might have said I wasn't disciplining my children because they didn't get a smack when they misbehaved. Would that give them the right to slap my children?
Where do you draw the line? At what point are you allowed to step in?

To give a real example, I was furious the other day when a woman grabbed my 3 yr old son at toddler group and held on to him. I had been in the middle of a sentence asking him to stop the behaviour. And noone was getting hurt except possibly the playdough, so it wasn't urgent. He and I were both shocked and froze. (He didn't cry.) I eventually had to say "Thank you, I was dealing with it" before she would let go. She probably thought I wasn't "disciplining" him because I hadn't moved from my seat. I knew I didn't need to.

Still have no argument with OP bringing child back to table in a friendly manner, as long as that is what she did. That's what I'd do if it was my child, at least until they'd been told a couple of times to sit nicely (which these children clearly hadn't), then I might get a bit fiercer.

The OP's intervention at that particular point and sitting him down on the chair may have prevented an accident at that moment.

Tell me, had the OP done nothing and the boy had caused an accident and been injured/scalded and had she then come here asking WIBU to have ignored his behaviour [as he's not her child] leading to an incident I suspect she would have the flaming from the pits of hell including all those who are currently saying she shouldn't have intervened!

OMG TinselTwister

The child's parents obviously hadn't stopped the child running around but if another family member or a member of staff or (gasp) even a stranger had stopped the child then you wouldn't have been hurt.

Oh I forgot, we can't have people touching other people's DC can we?

I hope Tinsel's story is a good lesson for any lax parents on this thread, or maybe you just don't care if someone else gets hurt as long as your little darlings get to do what they want.

I'm not opposed to intervening when there is a dangerous situation, but my general impression from the first post was that the OP was more bothered by the scene they were creating.

I would not be happy if I was sat there, thinking my childs behaviour was acceptable, in control of the situation. Then for someone to think it was their right to intervene. Your SIL was responsible for her children, not you. I think catkind phrased what I wanted to say well! People deal with behaviour in different ways.

No we can't have people touching our DC AllDirections. If I deal with a work problem badly, I wouldn't expect a friend to come and sort it out. My DS is my child and I don't expect people to interfere in his upbringing.

The comment on my previous post saying can't teachers dicipline my DC's. That's a totally different situation, by sending him to school I am accepting that he was will be taken care of by a teacher. Or if he was being baby sat by a friend and he did something wrong. When I am stood there, people shouldn't intervene!

I was concerned about the scene they were making, but the safety aspect was also a worry, once he had already run into the legs of a waitress and still was not stopped it was obvious it was an accident waiting to happen.

I am quite mystified at the poster who said I am nothing to do with the children and they are not even related to me. What an odd notion, I am the mother of their cousins. We're you saying I should have sat separately as I am not related? Would my kids sit with me or their dads family? When I visit my brother and his family, should I ignore his wife as she is nothing to do with me?

Family occasions must be a minefield in your house with that attitude!

I think anyone who wouldn't intervene when a child is in danger () doesn't deserve to be a parent.

So that includes Granny and OP's DH, right? They didn't put a stop to it, did they? Not clear how much they are supporting OP now, too.

Well done Blu for standing your ground; not that I agree with you, just admire the confidence (big wimp here).

OP: that tearing the Lego Technic apart episode would have done my head in. I see better now that this restaurant incident is just part of a whole series of intolerable events. I understand your position better as part of the bigger picture of chronic selfish behaviour being inadequately addressed. Put that way, I'll move over to the yanbu side.

But the SIL wasn't dealing with the behaviour, catkind, she was ignoring it.

I never have an issue with other people telling my DC off. If you teach your children that mummy and daddy are the only people ever allowed to discipline them, you're making school life for both them and the staff really unnecessarily hard work

My sister is a lazy parent, who has DC who are 'spirited'! She has never bothered, the school have 'always had it in' for her oldest DS! She just lets him do what he likes. He is nearly 15 and since September he has been permanently excluded from 2 schools, but according to her he is not a bad lad. I agree, he isn't. It is her fault, she has bloody failed him by being lazy and it makes me so bloody angry!

SIL does not seem to have any sense that their behaviour could lead to injury. Another example is her youngest DC at two went through a phase of slamming doors. As well as the noise bothering us, we could just see his little fingers getting caught and chopped off, particularly in our house as we have old heavy doors. We asked SIL outright to stop him doing his as we were worried about his fingers, her response was hat how was she supposed to stop him, as she couldn't supervise him everSIL does not seem to have any sense that their behaviour could lead to injury. Another example is her youngest DC at two went through a phase of slamming doors. As well as the noise bothering us, we could just see his little fingers getting caught and chopped off, particularly in our house as we have old heavy doors. We asked SIL outright to stop him doing his as we were worried about his fingers, her response was how was she supposed to stop him, as she couldn't supervise him every single minute and follow him around. We actually bought some foam anti door slammers for when they came around.

At a summer BBQ my OH had to dive in as he was about to slam our conservatory door when his sister had her fingers in the hinge side. SIL remained at table unconcerned.

My DH does back me up, he has dived in to stop them doing things in the past, but he seems to be able to zone out of the bad behaviour better than me. Granny dotes on all the DCs, but doesn't really know how to address the behaviour without upsetting SIL.

SIL outside the parentinf issues is a really likeable person, but her parenting is making us want to distance ourselves from her and the children, and has now led to a falling out, which is a shame. But I don't feel that it is such a big loss that I can swallow my principles and be browbeaten into apologising.y single minute and follow him around. We actually bought some foam anti door slammers for when they came around.

At a summer BBQ my OH had to dive in as he was about to slam our conservatory door when his sister had her fingers in the hinge side. SIL remained at table unconcerned.

My DH does back me up, he has dived in to stop them doing things in the past, but he seems to be able to zone out of he bad behaviour better than me. Granny dotes on all the DCs, but doesn't really know how to address the behaviour without upsetting SIL.

SIL outside the parentinf issues is a really likeable person, but her parenting is making us want to distance ourselves from her and the children, and has now led to a falling out, which is a shame. But I don't feel that it is such a big loss that I can swallow my principles and be browbeaten into apologising.

MsElleTow I suppose you sister will think that the justice system "has it in for" for your DN, after he gets a prison term for stealing something.

Sorry don't know what happened there!! Posting on phone.

Try again

SIL does not seem to have any sense that their behaviour could lead to injury. Another example is her youngest DC at two went through a phase of slamming doors. As well as the noise bothering us, we could just see his little fingers getting caught and chopped off, particularly in our house as we have old heavy doors. We asked SIL outright to stop him doing his as we were worried about his fingers, her response was hat how was she supposed to stop him, as she couldn't supervise him every single minute and follow him around. We actually bought some foam anti door slammers for when they came around.

At a summer BBQ my OH had to dive in as he was about to slam our conservatory door when his sister had her fingers in the hinge side. SIL remained at table unconcerned.

My DH does back me up, he has dived in to stop them doing things in the past, but he seems to be able to zone out of he bad behaviour better than me. Granny dotes on all the DCs, but doesn't really know how to address the behaviour without upsetting SIL.

SIL outside the parentinf issues is a really likeable person, but her parenting is making us want to distance ourselves from her and the children, and has now led to a falling out, which is a shame. But I don't feel that it is such a big loss that I can swallow my principles and be browbeaten into apologising.

I'm not opposed to intervening when there is a dangerous situation, but my general impression from the first post was that the OP was more bothered by the scene they were creating.

It is a dangerous situation though - read Tinsels post on the previous page (I think) about ending up with permanent scarring because of exactly this scenario. Yes the OP was bothered by it, so would I be. Doesn't make it less dangerous because it's also embarrassing.

My other thought is that I think it depends on what the child is doing and how it impinges on me as to whether I feel the right to step in and say something. So, if your child is kicking my seat on a plane and you are sitting there doing nothing, I will say something regardless of whether or not you think I have the right to discipline your child. (If I can see you are trying to sort it out, I won't say a thing - I've worked with young children all my life as well as having my own and know that the child who does what they are asked on the first time of asking is a rare one, or at least, is one that does it at home where no-one can see how brilliantly behaved they are!) Their actions affect me, so I have the right to tell your child so. (If I don't know you I might say something to you first, but the OP does know her SIL and knows saying something to her won't achieve anything). If you are indignant, then either never take your child where there are other people, or teach them that their behaviour affects others and stop them acting up.

The playdough example given above would annoy me too. Mainly because it doesn't affect anyone else. If the child was squashing someone else's playdough (my child's for example) I'd step in. It's not about different styles of parenting. It's about consideration for other people. If you aren't prepared to show that, or teach your children to show it, then other people will and you need to accept that. Sorry.

Sorry - the first line of my last post was a quote. I just failed spectacularly in making that clear. I think it was from Margey.

I wouldnt have a problem with a "disgusting" person "laying their hands" on my child!

If my kids were being so badly behaved that someone else had to step in I would be mortified and ashamed of my own behaviour, never mind theirs!

I think that is exactly what is going on now with SIL, Bogey.

Dowager, I agree it's not entirely the same situation. But I think appropriate to prevent the damage, not to discipline the child. I did say I agreed with getting the child back to the table. Perhaps some people would call this disciplining anyway, I'd just call it damage control.

In some circumstances I've given (implicit or explicit) permission for another adult to discipline my child, like school or child visiting a friend's house without me, or me leaving the room on a play date. (Even so I'd be very minimal with someone else's child, unless it's a formal setting with a discipline strategy the parents have signed up to like school.) That's clearly not the case here. So minimal intervention to prevent harm is reasonable, anything else is not.

However much you disagree with someone else's parenting, you can't parent their child for them. For those saying you'd be happy with anyone disciplining your child, how would you feel if they used a sanction you weren't happy with? I used the smacking example as I doubt anyone here would be happy with that. But we all have our own idea of what's appropriate and what's not.

babybythesea, don't know if you mean my playdough example, and if so if you mean you'd be annoyed by the grabby woman or by my son? He wasn't squashing anyone's playdough, he was just making a mess with his. He tidied it up immediately when I asked.

Probably MrsFlibble