To want to scream my head off at my Nanny for putting my gorgeous new wool jumper in teh dryer!?

[happywith3]

Aaargh! It wasn't cheap and I lusted after it and have only worn it once. It was gorgeous and now it is shrunk! I found it hanging next to the dryer where we put the stuff to dry that's not to go in the dryer but obviusly it went into the dryer because there is pink/red (colour of the jumper) in the thing that catches the fluff. It looks like she realised she shouldn't have put it in the dryer and then hung it there to make it look like it had not gone in or half dried it in the dryer and then hung it. I feel like screaming! How will I tell her calmly in the morning....

I have a degree and I had a city career, gave it up to stay at home with my kids. Am considering starting up as a cleaner. I think the concept of whether its demeaning is more to do with how you view their work. Clearly if you think it's demeaning its because you see the role and therefore the person doing it as having no value. Who cares what the job is we should all be respectful of one another. A cleaner, supermarket shelf staker, nanny. Whatever the (low paid) role should have as much respect as a judge. In fact I vote for paying people according to how vital their jobs are to society, I'm pretty certain that a bin man should earn more than a PR manager but that would never happen as too many people see that kind of job as demeaning.

Buy another jumper!!

I've had to clean as part of my jobs, I've had others clean for me and even clean my loos. How much does a cleaner cost per hour anyway? Why do you have to do it yourself? Why is it immoral to have someone clean for you if you pay them. I'm confused.

I would rather clean houses than work as a telesales person. I'd find it far less demeaning (I think there's at least some job satisfaction in leaving a house sparkling clean!)

£9.50 ph round here

Goldenbear is not that far off...

I'm a cleaner and although I might have originally started of with my self-esteem intact, eager and keen, believe me - it takes its toll in all ways after a while!

The problem is not how you view your work Ginger but how you customers view you. There will always be those that only see you as the 'cleaner' and treat you accordingly no matter what you did before or how intelligent you are.

Although I am aware that not everybody that cleans feel this way. For me it's the only income, lone parent and I rely on it to keep a roof over our heads; it's exhausting and of course there are bits of the job that are frankly disgusting but if you've got the money to expand or are only doing it part-time for a bit of pocket money then I can see the appeal and there's definitely the potential to make money.

But that's exactly my point itpeanuts, it's the value we as a society place on those sorts of jobs. Why do we place so much more value for instance in Drs than nurses (reflected in pay) why is someone who models clothes paid more than the person that makes them? It's topsy turvey and quite perverse but it comes down to our own attitudes. Why do you feel like 'just a cleaner'? You're doing a valuable back breaking job and should be respected and if people take liberties just remind them that you are paying for a service, slavery is something quite different. ;-)

I'm a nanny. I neither find it degrading nor an excuse to 'spend all day in someone else's very nice house'
I have a degree and am a nursing deploma. I have, in the past, used a cleaner myself.
I have no problem putting other people's washing in a machine or doing other cleaning type jobs in the house while children sleep.

I have a nursing diploma, I'm not a nursing deploma!

Gingerninja, you have totally misunderstood my point - I'm not sure if that is deliberate. I actually said it was degrading not demeaning others said it was demeaning so I started referencing the demeaning comments. Hiring House Help of some kind that has to do laundry that may include dirty underwear, cleaning crap stained loos, cleaning out the pubic hairs from plug holes demonstrates that you, as the employer, puts a low value on that kind of work as your time is much more valuable than those menial tasks. Cleaning is not deemed to be of value by those who employ cleaners, that is why they don't do it themselves and that is what makes it degrading work. How the hell do you assume someone like me, who has the principle of cleaning up after myself in my own domestic setting, is responsible for devaluing the person who cleans.

What leads someone to have to make that choice in the first place are you telling me that if working practices, organisational culture were altered to be more accommodating of family life that you would still consider the option of cleaning as a SAHM? Yes, I thought about it to as I am a SAHM and I'm good at cleaning (sadly) but I'm wondering why I have to consider this when I'm educated to Masters level and I had a very good job before my DC.

Thanks Original Lady :)

Oh and I have actually been planning the separate laundry basket and a ceiling mounted dryer! Just haven't had the time to get round to it! You'd be amazed how time consuming it is sitting around drinking coffee while my slaves clean my house and look after my kids ;-)

P.S. I'm trying to stretch the jumper. Have used conditioner and drying in avery cold room. The shape looks a tad odd but it might work! (it's not fully dry yet)

Itspeanuts: Your post brings tears to my eyes. FWIW. e'va had the same (part-time) cleaner for 5 years and she is like one of the family. She absolutely adores my kids. I have found her loads of other work including some nannying which she hadn't done before. We definitely do not see her as just a cleaner.

Many people are not SAHMs though. I have friends who have insane jobs, work stupidly long hours all week, meaning their DC are in childcare 8-6pm all week. They have a cleaner so they can see their DC at the weekend instead of cleaning all day. not because they think cleaning is in some way beneath them.

Bagofmashings: You say it exactly as it is!

Goldenbear: "Cleaning is not deemed to be of value by those who employ cleaners" er, what?! If I don't see it of value then why would I pay for it? Did it ever cross your mind that some people have jobs, kids other things going on and don't have the time to clean or if they do clean it might mean spending less time with their kids or getting less sleep or whatever. Sometimes it's just a question of logistics. Some people have all the time in the world but simply don't like cleaning and would rather pay someone to do it. The cleaner is not being forced to do it but is presumably glad to have employment

When I pay for a cleaner I am paying for a service like any other. I don't look down on my cleaner and I don't attach any low value to it quite the opposite! It is of great value which is why I am willing to pay for it!

What is the ridiculous outrage at the nanny washing the bosses stuff about?
Maybe she agreed to. Maybe she wanted to help. Maybe it is part of her agreed contract. I think someone other than the OP need to get a grip.

When I was a nanny I did loads of stuff that wasn't in my contract. I was a very good nanny who was very much appreciated.

But there you are, educated to masters level therefore too important to be doing a job like cleaning. So what, everyone and his dog has a degree or a masters and what does it prove? So have I but am I more valuable? I think not however we can probably command a higher salary but why? Is what you would do with your masters more valuable than say a paramedic? Can you command a higher salary than say a nurse? Value and worth. It's a bloody nonsense.

Goldenbear - I've been a cleaner and I've paid a cleaner. I don't have one at the moment but I will probably employ one again. Domestic cleaning can be a brilliant high-ish earning unskilled job that fits around school hours and those kind of jobs are in short supply. When I've had a cleaner, I've paid them more than I pay my nanny fwiw.

Do you have a problem with people employing childminders or sending their kids to nursery too? Or is it only cleaning you think is such a lowly job?

happywith3, the value of your time you obviously deem as more expensive, put a higher value on it than using it to clean. Therefore, that less valued activity is outsourced.

The arguments of how much time people have to clear up the mess they made are irrelevant. It is the principle of someone else cleaning up your mess that is wrong IMO.

Gingerninja, well it's not really a nonsense is it? It's a nonsense to say all jobs have the same value and it's a nonsense to say your job is your worth, which is exactly what you are saying. A job does not define someone's personality but it does have a huge impact on their existence - the environment you live in, the opportunities afforded to you and your children and consequently your overall happiness.

I've done low status jobs to fund my degree expenses, that ultimately improved my prospects. I would not do a job that uses none of the skills and knowledge I have acquired just because my choices are very limited as a SAHP.

It is a nonsense to say every Man and his Dog have a Masters degree. I only know one other person who has an MA degree out of a number of people that all have a 1st degree only.

goldenbear

cleaning out the pubic hairs from plug holes demonstrates that you, as the employer, puts a low value on that kind of work as your time is much more valuable than those menial tasks

Well, yes. Quite frankly I do value my free time as too valuable to do much cleaning.

How do you feel about people paying an accountant to go through their box of receipts and fill out their tax return (which one can do perfectly easily oneself) The customer places more importance on their own time and therefore the accountant should feel degraded?

I find your attitude really very strange. When you stay in a hotel do you clean the loo before you leave? At the end of the day at work do you hoover around your desk? Madness.

There are many other things apart from cleaning I deem my time to be too valuable for. Hedge trimming (bloody difficult up a precarious step ladder wielding hedge trimmers!). I paid for uplift of my old carpet when I for a new one put down. I pay a laundrette to wash and iron my shirts. I pay a taxi driver to drive me home at night from work. I leave a service charge after a meal when the waiter has served me my food and drink while I sit there bone idle.

Goldenbear - I asked your age because I felt it would be interesting to know if you were a) very young b) quite young c) plain naive. I don't need an answer, I have decided it's d) 'none of the above'. Simply that you cannot see beyond an idealistic view you held when you were very young and that you have no interest in educating yourself out of. Fair enough.

Having a masters means jack shit frankly.

Chippingin why are you so angry and offensive all the time?

I didn't hold this view when I was very young. I think what you haven't seemed to grasp is that we're probably of very different political persuasions- you appear conservative with a small c and I am not so I would imagine it would be rare for me to see your posts and think, 'yes Chippingin has made a really good point about that'. However , I am a grown up and so can make my point without getting so angry about your alternative view.

Unfortunately I am not particularly young (35), naive- that's hilarious! Yes I am guilty of aspiring to the ideal than festering in the grim reality.

You had to have an MA to do my last job- hardly means 'Jack shit'!

Having a masters means jack shit frankly

Means you missed the boat on grad job applications so deferred life by a year and stayed at uni... [mostly joking before everyone with a masters gets pissy]

"Oh also OP, when you hire your housekeeper don't forget the chauffeur for driving, gardener to cut the lawn and live in odd job man to change the lightbulbs...if you can afford a nanny you must be able to afford a legion of suitably qualified household staff"

Noone is arguing for that. You would not expect the nanny to also do the gardening, pick you up from work and fix the roof though. Everyone who is saying that it isn't the nanny's responsibility is saying you either hire the right person to do the job (wouldn't necessarily have to be on a fulltime basis - you could have someone come in once a week to do the washing) or ... shock horror... you do it yourself...

Mishimishi-it is the nanny's responsibility to do whatever she has agreed with her employer that she will do, not whatever you have decided is appropriate based on her job title!

Goldenbear, just out of curiosity, in your ideal world, how many other "service" jobs do you consider degrading that people should do themselves? Basic beauty treatments, waxing body hair, waitressing, bar work, chefs? Where does it stop and how do the people that would otherwise have done these jobs earn a living?