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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not want my DC to participate in nativity?

631 replies

Spru · 05/12/2012 15:47

I asked school to excuse DC from nativity (due to religious reasons - we do not depict jesus/mary/joseph.) They were absolutely fine with it. Happened to mention this to work colleagues - and they basically told me that I wasn't willing to integrate! Hmm

I was a bit shocked that they saw it like this despite the fact that I explained why. I didn't realise that this decision was perceived as a lack of willingness to integrate - in a country which I have been born and brought up in.

I had to bite my tongue for the sake of peace!

So...MN jury...Grin AIBU to exclude DC from nativity for religious reasons (note: DC is not excluded from other christmas activities at school). Am I just not integrating well into the society that I was born and brought up in?

TIA

Grin

(please be gentle)

OP posts:
Jinsei · 07/12/2012 20:34

I really don't get the argument about "the best interests of the child". I am agnostic, and don't really believe in a god of strict rules or an afterlife. I'm not even sure if I believe in a god at all. I therefore make my day-to-day decisions regarding her upbringing on the basis of whether something would be good for her, now or in the future, whether it will make her happy, whether she will learn something valuable from it etc.

But it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to understand that someone with a different world view and strong religious beliefs is going to use a different set of criteria. If you believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god who has decreed that some things are not allowed, then you're going to want your child to be aware of those rules. Yes, your child might have fun doing the nativity, but is that short-term enjoyment for your child really in their best interests if it means that they may break the commandments of the god that you hold dear? I shouldn't think so.

Is it really so hard to step into someone else's shoes for a few minutes, to see things as they might see them?

NanFucker · 07/12/2012 21:17

Can someone answer why eating Halal meat is 'worshipping another God' or similar that was said upthread? I'm genuinely Confused and interested in the answer.

Original poster
Spru · 07/12/2012 22:14

chatty yes i did invite opinions purely because i was shocked at the response that i got from my colleagues. I would never in a million years have thought that my decision was showing an unwillingness to integrate. I wanted to see how others would perceive my decision and the effect on integration.

Thankfully, the majority have been very fair - including those who disagreed with my decision. So many have actually understood the exact point that i am making, and defended my right, despite the fact that they dont share my beliefs.

Yes, there are some who will still find fault, but lets face it, there will always be some who will disagree, and that is what is so great about diversity. You just have to learn how to adapt and accommodate without compromising your beliefs (whatever they may be).

exotic some posters have mentioned their DCs choose sweets that are suitable for their muslim friends. I think it is a really lovely and thoughtful gesture. Would it be really hard for adults to learn something from that and openly welcome the differences and try to accommodate if not too difficult? And i am not limiting those gestures to muslims. There is so much more to life than a nativity. I am glad your mum ensured that you participate in nativity, that was obviously important to you. As a mum, I am coming to realise that my young dc already has a set of values which are a more important to him than nativity and haribos!

By the way....... I lurve haribos (halal ones of course) Xmas Grin , so no good converting to get away from them mrsTP . They are everywhere!! Xmas Grin

In fact, i am embarrassed to say that i can polish off a whole packet in a day! Xmas Blush

But in my own defence, i can only lay my hands on halal ones once a year as there are no halal shops near where i live. :)

OP posts:
lovebunny · 07/12/2012 22:34

i've just seen this thread for the first time and its waaaaaaaay too long to read.

you are quite right to keep to your religious principles. the people around you who don't agree simply lack knowledge.

you aren't acting against uk culture or tradition. our (and that includes you) culture and tradition is to be accepting of difference and not to 'make windows into mens' souls'.

if you're ok with your child not taking part, and the school is ok with it, and the child understands that it isn't just him, there are british (of all ethnic backgrounds and heritage) children all over the country not doing nativities for various reasons, i can't see that there is any problem with it.

you just know some people who haven't really thought it through yet.

sarahtigh · 07/12/2012 23:07

there are also Christians who think portraying Jesus is wrong ( breaking second commandment) and would not have pictures of Jesus whether high classical art or just a story bible nor would they watch/ view film or TV when an actor was playing Jesus or God, or wear a crucifix with Christ on. I know my parents believe this, I never played in nativities when I was young either, it is no big deal ( though 1 year i waved a blue scarf my parents were unaware that i was representing the river nile as mary, joseph and jesus escaped to egypt!)

not depicting jesus physically to me is a completely separate religious issue to knowing the story of christmas or participating in the understanding of it

I would agree that doing bits of christmas and not other bits does need more explaining; if you are muslim saying we do not celebrate christmas because though we believe Jesus was a prophet sent from Gid we do not believe he was the Son of God and Christmas in the christian sense is about celebrating the birth of Christ as God's son, if reasonable and so therefore we do not act in plays depicting Jesus as such,

Father Christmas has very vague links to christinainty and is different in many countries within Europe ( st Nicholas was in Holland yesterday I Think) while the story of Jesus birth is much the same throughout christian churches

Whether you agree with this or not is of course entirely up to you,

to me it is OK to stop your children doing things you do not want them to do if against your beliefs, this also fades as they get older. but whether you do not want your Dc to have coca cola/ watch Ben 10 / have bratz dolls be in Nativity play, eat hot dogs, etc

however people do get more than averagely het up about nativity plays and the reality of Santa at christmas

sashh · 08/12/2012 01:32

The baby Jesus was NOT a prophet. Nor were Mary & Joseph prophets.

WTF?

Sorry but Jesus is a prophet in Islam.

Jews (with the exception of masianic) do not believe Jesus to be the messiah, Christians do, Muslims believe him to be a prophet.

You cannot impose your belief on someone else.

Spru

I don't feel sorry for you or your children. My beliefs are different to yours, I respect your beliefs and I suggest others on here should do so to.

Brycie · 08/12/2012 01:34

When eyou live in other countries you join in their holi or diwali or whatever just to be part of what's going on.

Not4turning · 08/12/2012 01:37

I am sorry but it's christmas and most of the uk celebrate it by having nativity's in schools, singing carols and getting pissed on the 25th! It's hardly brainwashing your child to follow Jesus' life, is it?

I am religious and see Christmas as so much more than this.x

Sirzy · 08/12/2012 01:42

Again if people bother to read what the OP has said this isn't an issue to do with Christmas, or any lack of respect for Christian beliefs.

It is about not doing one activity which specifically goes against their religion. Why is that wrong?

Would you do something which went against your beliefs just to keep

Sirzy · 08/12/2012 01:42

*others happy

Brycie · 08/12/2012 01:45

Yes, I've joined in holy and diwali celebrations just to fit in with the community. My faith was quite strong enough to withstand the onslaught of a community coming together in that way.

Not4turning · 08/12/2012 02:10

Because its what happens here around the end of December. From what I see as a Christian, not a lot else goes on, but we live in a Christian country and if you want your child to be educated in the Christian country, you really should expect this sort of stuff to go on. Of course, you are more than able to home educate...........

misterwife · 08/12/2012 02:15

Jinsei, your DD is doing better than me. We're Jewish but not observant in the slightest - apart from searching high and low for a synagogue for the High Holidays and trying to do things right during Passover - and the other week I blithely offered one of my much more observant Jewish mates a gelatine-laden sweet. I could have fallen through the floor in embarrassment...

LulaBear · 08/12/2012 02:18

Christmas is a religious festival. You cannot make it gift-giving day with no meaning. Who would WANT to teach their children, on one day a year we get in debt to show our love. If you were truly atheist, you would NOT observe religious holidays?? I'm a Christian. As such, I don't observe Eid, Diwali or Hannukah. An atheist who celebrates Christmas is a hypocrite.

ChippingInAWinterWonderland · 08/12/2012 02:23

A Christian who doesn't know that 'Christmas' was a pagan festival that the Christians adopted needs to do a little research Smile

MrsTerryPratchett · 08/12/2012 03:19

misterwife you're fine. The last meal I had at my friends' house was pork and oysters. Observant, they ain't. I'm sure gelatin wasn't quite that bad says the former veggie who knows how bad it is.

Christmas is a festival which was grafted onto the numerous mid-winter festivals. Two reasons, to get the heathens in line and make conversion easier and you need a mid-winter festival in cold countries. Life is hard and dark and miserable and the candles and evergreens make us happy. You do understand, Lulu that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th December?

sashh · 08/12/2012 03:30

Yes, I've joined in holy and diwali celebrations just to fit in with the community. My faith was quite strong enough to withstand the onslaught of a community coming together in that way.

Were you asked to do something that your faith prohibits though?

That is the only bit of the celebration the OP doesn't want her children to take part in, the bit her faith says is wrong.

So OK you have not said what your faith is, but shall we pick the 10 comandments?

No 1 "I am the LORD your God:you shall not have strange Gods before me."

So if you are Jewish or Christian it's OK to throw coloured powder around, or looking at pretty lights, but it's not OK to worship a Hindu God.

There is a huge difference between joining in, and doing something completely against your faith.

As I said before you wouldn't expect a Jew or Muslim to suddenly be OK eating pork because it is Christmas. (I'm aware that some Jewish people would eat it so as to be good guests, and I know one who actually looks forward to it).

LulaBear · 08/12/2012 06:45

Yes, I do know that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December exactly :). Maybe I was little strong in my last post. I still think that if you are so dead set against the Nativity you shouldn't be celebrating Christmas, but something else perhaps.

Weissdorn · 08/12/2012 07:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sirzy · 08/12/2012 07:21

Lula - the OP is happy to join in with other aspects of Christmas but refuses to take part in the acting out of the nativity because it goes against her religious beliefs. Why is that wrong?

Christmas means different things to different people, but nobody needs to force their beliefs and ideals on anyone else. I hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas however they as a family choose to celebrate it (or not celebrate it)

AppleAndBlackberry · 08/12/2012 08:04

As a Christian I totally understand the OP's point of view. I'm happy for my children to learn about other religions but there might be things I would not want them to do (e.g. participate in an act of worship?). I've not come across one yet but I would hope if I chose to withdraw them from something on religious basis I would be treated with some understanding. Apparently not according to this thread!

Brycie · 08/12/2012 08:24

I think she's being a bit ridiculous really. I do feel slightly sorry for the child. I think it's a bit attention seeking on the mum's part. Sorry op!

Sirzy · 08/12/2012 08:34

Why is it ridiculous to not do something that goes against the teachings of your faith?

Brycie · 08/12/2012 08:45

I've had a look on the thread to see if it's banned by a hadith or a passage from the Qran but I didn't see one, but maybe I missed it. So it's much more open to interpretation really, and it's always possible to have a word with the teacher saying we can't be mary or joseph because it doesn't sit well with me but I don't want my child left out, is there a way he/she can join in being something else.

Sirzy · 08/12/2012 08:48

But they are still involved in the act then, whether they are playing the role of the prophet or not.

All aspects of religion are open to personal intepretation, although as far as I know that is a pretty common interpreation.