To not want my DC to participate in nativity?

[Spru]

I asked school to excuse DC from nativity (due to religious reasons - we do not depict jesus/mary/joseph.) They were absolutely fine with it. Happened to mention this to work colleagues - and they basically told me that I wasn't willing to integrate!

I was a bit shocked that they saw it like this despite the fact that I explained why. I didn't realise that this decision was perceived as a lack of willingness to integrate - in a country which I have been born and brought up in.

I had to bite my tongue for the sake of peace!

So...MN jury... AIBU to exclude DC from nativity for religious reasons (note: DC is not excluded from other christmas activities at school). Am I just not integrating well into the society that I was born and brought up in?

TIA

(please be gentle)

As a child who was taken out of nativity plays, I can assure you no lasting damage was done. I absolutely understood why I was taken out, even at age 5 and that was fine. More damage was done to me when my mum came in to school every bloody Jewish holiday to do an assembly in front of the whole school - usually using me and my sister as props. Doing a bit of colouring in while the other children got bored doing the nativity really wasn't a problem.

I re-read this thread last night and I think perhaps I (and maybe others?) may have missed the key poInt of the OP. I don't think it was obfuscating, but I think reading quickly, as many of us do, I missed the representation issue as I was thinking 'secret Santa?!'

I spent a year in a Muslim school in Riyadh and we were taught that any representation (image, play, films) is against the teachings of Islam. I have since been told that that was a very literal and fundamental interpretation of the teachings, and that other Muslims believe differently and take a more liberal view.

Now, if after that level of immersion (three hours daily of Koran study, in Arabic) I am still misunderstanding and being corrected by Muslim friends, then I can see very easily why this thread has stirred such high feelings.

I also observe that the British are extremely emotional about Christmas; it's a time of year for dropping the stiff upper lip and feeling warm and sentimental and inclusive. Hence the 3rd lobster shorthand, because lots of us see the modern nativity as a more inclusive and non-specific play that is more about celebrating hope and love than attempting a specific Christian dictate.

I think the OP perhaps needs to clarify the question? Are you being unreasonable not wanting your child to take part in something specifically and absolutely forbidden by his religion? I don't think anyone would think that was unreasonable at all.

Do people think that involvement as a nonprophet in a nativity play us haram? That could be a question for Islamic scholars or, as one of my friends suggested, a very personal question only you and your family should answer.

The integration issue is a whole other thread!!

I think ypu dud the right thing to post and open the debate; there is too much entrenched belief around these issues and if we, as parents and aquaintances, can keep a dialogue going, however heated, that can only be a good thing.

Anyway, whatever you choose, I hope that you enjoy the holidays and this exciting time of year!

But the OP has said her ds is fine with it, as is the school Exoticfruits. I think the OP has 'thought it through' adequately enough, how about giving her the benefit of the doubt.

I sometimes didn't take part in school activities, hasn't damaged me in the least, I'm as normal as the next person most of the time .

. I think the OP has 'thought it through' adequately enough, how about giving her the benefit of the doubt.

this the Op sounds a reasonable sensible thoughtful parent her son is happy the school is happy to abide by her decision, her son will be fine he is missing out on nothing at all .

TO be clear (so the OP doesn't feel personally got at by me) I despise all religions. They're all ludicrous bullshit. And the reason other people are unsettled and uneasy about the OP's choice is that it's an irrational, daft taboo that makes no sense to them - there is no logical backup for it. It's like (picking examples here that as far as I know are not specific to any existing superstition) insisting that your DC are never allowed to wear green socks, even if that's the school's colour; your family's socks must be pink. Because your imaginary friend says so. Or it being allowed for DC to play hockey at school, but not tennis. Because your imaginary friend says so.

And people who insist on following ridiculous and totally logic free taboos (eg, it's fine to eat beef but not lamb or whatever) then it does tend to make you expect them to subscribe to the known unpleasant values of restrictive superstitions. Because the whole point of this crap has always been social control and enforcing obedience, to privilege one group over the rest: the silly little meaningless taboos are just about reinforcing obedience.

I certainly don't agree with a lot of things I see and read, but as long as other people's beliefs don't break any laws, cause suffering, or are forced upon people against their will I say live and let live.

I certainly don't despise or feel uneasy about beliefs/superstitions other then my own, but if that is how you feel then I respect your opinion,

IMVVHO .

I understand that everyone has different beliefs and that in main stream schools it is difficult as they tend to go along the CofE or RC route.

I am not really religious and DH is RC but as far as I am concerned they are OUR beliefs and NOT the DCs so I would always let the DCs participate in whatever the school is doing as I believe it is up to them to choose what they believe from all the things they learn with regards to religion.

DS1 (6) reads the bible every night at the moment as that is what he wants to do, he also learns about lots of different religions at school and talks about them a lot.

As long as your DD is truly happy with it then I guess it is irrelevant and is no one elses business other than yours.

Sorry DS not DD

OP, YABU to expect a thread like this in 'AIBU' to be 'gentle', and a lot of indignant hot air could have been saved had you been more explanatory about the Islamic belief around representation in your OP.

But some people do have a lot of indignant hot air to vent

Solid - By inserting your standard anti-religious rant (complete with bold font, so it must be true), you are absolutely missing the point about why people get so het-up about a Muslim choosing (or choosing for her child) not to participate in something.

I guarantee that had the O.P been a white JW, her colleagues would have never accused her of not "intergrating", but instead she's a brown person with a "forrin" religion so she must show she's "grateful to be allowed to live here" and go along with "our ways", that's what's underneath their outrage.

Solid - By inserting your standard anti-religious rant (complete with bold font, so it must be true), you are absolutely missing the point about why people get so het-up about a Muslim choosing (or choosing for her child) not to participate in something.

I guarantee that had the O.P been a white JW, her colleagues would have never accused her of not "intergrating", but instead she's a brown person with a "forrin" religion so she must show she's "grateful to be allowed to live here" and go along with "our ways", that's what's underneath their outrage.

Do we know she is a 'brown person' or have you made this assumption? Genuinely asking as I may have missed this.

Also really don't understand why some people getting so het up about 'outrage' - the OP did ask if she was being unreasonable and invite opinions. Unless she feels absolutely that she is NOT being unreasonable then surely she must expect and welcome reactions. They are not uninvited personal attacks, she asked to know what we thought.

Finally, she has mentioned that there is nothing wrong with diversity I think, well diversity and inclusion surely does go both ways, perhaps she could go along with the diversity and join in a little more?

Goth, what nonsense.

Okaaaaayyyy solid .

If you 'despise' all religions, then surely you 'despise' nativity too? After all, it is essentially a celebration of the birth of jesus who is definitely not an atheist figure. It appears not, as you suggest op has made an 'irrational' decision by not participating in nativity.

I also think that the op's 'brown' skin and islamic religion have A LOT to do with the some of the more hostile posts that we have been seeing.

ChattyKa - she takes part in Secret Santa and the Christmas Lunch, her children particpate in everything else christmas-related at school - isn't that 'both ways'? Why are you having a go?

The OP can't win either way. Some people are saying that she should embrace diversity and "join in" more, while others are calling her a hypocrite for joining in the bits that aren't explicitly forbidden by her religion.

chatty op mentioned she was of a different ethnicity early up in the thread, but i am sure she can clarify when she comes.

As for diversity, has she not been diverse enougH by participating in normal british life. She has drawn a line on an issue that is important to her, and you cannot tolerate that! She sends her child to a mainstream school, Further up, someone suggested she send her dc to a faith school so her dc is never excluded again! That speaks volumes for the kind of diversity some are comfortable with.

It is kind of saying, that unless you cannot be a sheep like most, then you have not integrated. Great diversity there!

Op has not been offensive, been polite and funny and also mentioned that she has no problems with people having differing views. She is doing her bit for diversity, what are you doing? Youre telling her she is not diverse enough!

I'm a devout atheist - evangelical you might say and my DS is going to be a king in his last nativity play this year.

What baffles me is those who consider themselves Christians (on the basis on some of the posts here) would rather that OP does what I do and let DS participate whilst teaching him that its all a pile of superstitious tosh based on a pagan midwinter festival but good fun (or words to that effect) which in all honestly is very hypocritical and somewhat disrespectful to christians. Surely her way is manages to be respectful to both her own religion and christianity without her DC's appearing to be bothered by it.

I am baffled by the ire raised OP's decision particularly if its "only a play".

Oh and OP you can have christmas off with a clear conscience - as its a bank holiday not a "christian" holiday. Not all bank holidays are christian related though obviously some of them originated that way.

We atheists are allowed to take them off too.

I love the idea that the nativity play is part of the national curriculum? Is that right? Surely not! If anything it buggers up a fair chunk of learning in the Autumn term.

OOH if someone of christian faith whose kids went to the same school decided they didn't want their child to participate in say a Divali assembly. What would the reaction be. I remember a while ago about a poster getting flamed because she didn't want her dc to bow her head at a Seik temple.

I think that is what Katty ka meant. Also secret santa isn't really christian anyway and is a cultural thing.

TBH i think fair enough to the OP in some ways as the nativity is a christian play but has imported lots of extras into into it but then doesn't Islam recognise Jesus as a phrophet.

Couldn't her son have been a wise man from the East for example but I suppose the wise men pay homage to the christ child.

alemci, the whole point is that Islam does recognise Jesus as a prophet, and as such, the depiction of him in a nativity play is considered unacceptable.

This is not about the OP's attitude towards other religions, it is about showing appropriate respect for the prophets of her own faith.