AIBU to think that when all things are considered, teachers are on the equivalent of NMW?

[Glossynotflossy]

The extra time spent at home planning, making reources, time spent buying resources (out of your own pocket) basically means that teachers, in reality, are on the equivalent or just above NMW for all the work outside of the actual classroom?

I don't think you'll find anyone who has "whined" about holidays.

When you reread properly, you will see instead that several posters have corrected the myth that teachers' 13 weeks holiday is paid.

But away at no one if you like. You'll look a bit daft though.

indeed, not whining at all, just setting out some facts. Also at the poster who said you can only be an OK teacher if you do 1 hr a night and a small amount in the holidays. I've been doing this for 14 years, you teach the same stuff every year so with minor adjustments there isn't actually that much prep anymore. Depending on the subject marking also can vary, not every piece of hwk for every group has to be an essay that takes ages to mark - it can legitimately be reading as preparation for the next class or researching something related to the topic. You check they've done it but it doesn't have to be "marked" as such. This is not cutting corners, its working smart. Occasionally lots of stuff snowballs together, like mock marking and reports and end of term assessments but on the whole, I get along. I work hard and don't have huge amounts of time but I never have to sit up til the wee small hours and I, my colleagues, my superiors and most importantly my students think I am more than an OK teacher.

you teach the same stuff every year

This is very rarely the case in primary school. I would consider an hour a night be an easier and rare day - Friday, perhaps.

absolutely, I have said it is different for different age groups / subjects etc. That's why it is so hard to generalise that doing x makes you a good teacher but doing y must mean you are only ok. I take my hat off to primary teachers - at least with teenagers you (rarely) have to sort out tears, sick, pee etc!

This old chest nut.DH is a teacher, moved from IT as he wanted an easier life. He loves his career, but is always saying that the collective noun for a group of teachers should be a whinge!

Two observations:

1. Teaching is relatively well paid. A half competent nqt can easily hit £30k a year after a few years. Outside of the fabled city, few careers can say this. Plus the pension is second to none (only policing is better and not by much). The general T&Cs are also excellent. Few private sector jobs compare.

1. Any teacher doing more than an average of 45 hours per week is either a martyr or incompetent. There is simply no need. True, there are crunch periods where long days really are necessary but they're hardly common. And the holidays more than make up for this.

My DH is universally acknowledged as an outstanding teacher, well liked and has made a good career out of it. true, he is paid less than he was but i actually see him now and he's no longer constantly stressed. He puts this down to his experience outside of teaching - something many if his colleagues lack and the reason why their expectations are so out of line with the reality. They simply don't realise that a couple of long days or a weekend catching up on things is perfectly normal in any half decent profession.

Beanie has your dh worked at more than one school? I only ask because some schools are a lot more pleasant working environments than others.

I'm fortunate that I also only do about 45-50 hours a week and rarely work holidays (maybe the odd half day to catch up on stuff plus a fe days at the end of August). I'm generally not stressed, but do get pretty tired from the demands of the job. I think this is mainly because I work at a school that is generally a happy place and have a leadership team who value work/life balance

However as many will testify on here it isn't the case in other schools. Some leaders are bullies and have excessive expectations in terms of paperwork, hours worked and pupils' acheivement. In those circumstances I think teachers should feel fairly justified in whinging!

Sure if you're just a teacher and working more than 45 hours that might be true Beanie - it won't be if you teach 8 subjects, and have 25 staff working for you - the slt at dh's previous school worked even longer than he did as a middle leader.

The slt at dh's previous school decreed that all the teachers had to be at least good and that 70% of his dept had to be outstanding - I'm sure you can understand how many hours he had to work to get his departments teachers there

I am so glad he doesn't work there now.

2. Any teacher doing more than an average of 45 hours per week is either a martyr or incompetent.

Then there's no way your dh is a primary school teacher.

Well he's a head of year i think. While I'm not sure completely what that entails he certainly isn't 'just' a teacher. He's moved around a fair bit including one fairly 'challenging' school but I have no problem saying he could have been lucky in where he's worked.

The thing he's always going on about is how so many of his colleagues don't know how good they have it. They're 'career' teachers with no experience outside of that environment. The things that they complain about are just /normal/ for everyone else but because they've been cosseted by the job they see having to do a few extra hours as 'exceptional'.

Teaching /is/ undervalued and its depressing how its used as a political football but it really is more than fairly rewarded and it really isn't that demanding or hard all things considered. You'll never be rich as a teacher but so far as secure, rewarding and well paid careers go there are a lot worse.

Just don't mention the NUT...

So he's not a primary school teacher then.

So you can amend your ludicrously ill-informed comment to "Any teacher doing more than an average of 45 hours per week is either a martyr or incompetent or teaches in a primary school."

Then you might sound like you know what you are talking about sort of.

No lots of jobs incurr unpaid overtime.

My dh regularly works 8 am till 9pm + and he's self employed so doesn't get sick pay/pension or paid annual leave.

I was a cm and we had to do planning and evaluation etc, worked a 10 hour day with 4 weeks annual leave. No sick pay or holiday pay.

I left to be a TA and took a massive drop in pay but love it.

I have to say the teachers I work with work hard ( paid well) and some of the planning has had the year changed from 2010 to 2012..

One teacher is having IVF and gets paid time off for this,, that's lovely but I think some public sector workers haven't a clue how this just wouldn't happen in the private sector...

Have to agree beanie with this: "Any teacher doing more than an average of 45 hours per week is either a martyr or incompetent".

Although I work in a mannual job now, once upon a time and in a past life (before 3rd dc and too long a career break but a whole other thread!) I had a good career in the private sector with a more than comfortable salary and good benefits. To have to put in those kind of hours for any job (and I was more than use to working a 45 hour week), says to me that they lack confidence in their skills and abilities as a teacher.

I think, like most jobs, the working conditions depend on where you work and what kind of school it is. But people often confuse the time their DC spends in school with the hours a teacher does. Programmes like Waterloo Road do nothing to dispel this with shots of the Head wandering in with the DC in the morning. My mum still thinks DH is at home on inset days.

A friend's DH is an IT teacher and loves it. He leaves school at 5.30 every day and does minimal work at home in the evenings. He's on a good salary.

DH is a science teacher with a TLR, works at a very demanding school where nothing less than outstanding is acceptable, gets no breaks during the day as they are spent setting up the next practical, in meetings about how they're going to get little Johnny to achieve his target grade or phoning parents. He often comes home without having had any lunch, works till 9/10pm in the evenings, mostly marking controlled assessments, and shouts at DC if there is the teeniest bit of conflict.

Another friend is a teacher and she switched to a mooncup on my recommendation as she has heavy periods and some days she doesn't have time to go to the toilet to change her tampon. Don't ask me how, but it's a genuine problem that she has struggled with for months.

My feeling is that over a 12 month period teachers work a similar number of hours as a typical high-pressured hard-working job. Unfortunately for teachers, it's condensed into a shorter period so can become very high-pressured and can be incredibly stressful.

DH took a 50% pay cut to go into teaching, but there'll always be jobs that pay more or less for the same qualifications and/or working conditions. I have police friends who are very at the salaries firemen earn and say they spend most of their night shift sleeping at the fire station. But then they run into a burning building and risk their lives to save another. So who's to say who has the harder job and should be paid more?

But I do despair when teachers don't help themselves or their profession by thinking they're worse off than everyone else. Some are, some aren't. I expect OP was having a vent and had had a bad day when she wrote that post. Though for every bit as wearing it gets for non-teachers to listen to teachers wringing, it's just as wearing to be told you have an easy job, work 8.30-3 and get 13 weeks' holiday a year and 5 inset days, because that's simply not true either.

Oh, ffs. And was this primary school?

I love the way people can tell me I must be shit at my job because the hours are more that they decree.

than

And that was to Stopthatmavis, obviously.

My heart bleeds for you Feenie and how tough life is!

One teacher is having IVF and gets paid time off for this,, that's lovely but I think some public sector workers haven't a clue how this just wouldn't happen in the private sector...

My dp is an hr manager in the private sector. His response to this is 'bollocks'. Apparently legalisation is being to passed currently to ensure ivf is covered under normal sickness and medical leave, but that any good employer will be currently be giving paid leave as a matter of course (his company does).

I always find it amusing that private sector employees acuse teachers of being martyrs and then claim how hard they have it. I'm glad I have dp on hand to dispel this for me (and how I love the stories of some employees sense of entitlement he has encountered). Btw I know that this is a minority of private sector workers - just like its only a minority of public sector workers who take the piss.

I'm not saying it's tough.

I'm saying you're wrong.

Difference.

Yes, it's all too predictable.

Idiots rushing onto the thread to say teachers only work 5 minutes a day, get 38 weeks of holiday a year and if they don't they must be shit.

Teachers correct the misconceptions.

Same idiots shout at us to stop moaning.

Of course there's nothing to stop the self-employed with no pension or paid holiday becoming teachers and also benefitting from the job security and guaranteed pay rises. There's a shortage of good teachers apparently and it's a great job, long holidays and if you're good enough at it, you don't need to spend much time planning and marking. What's not to like?

That was not the point of this thread though was it Feenie?

Why don't you try domestic cleaning at 40 hours a week for minimum wage. Cleaning shitty toilets, disposing of dirty sanitary wear, are a regular as is crippling joint pain through wear and tear and exhaustion. OH, and throw in self-employed with no paid holiday or sickness but still preferable to living a life on benefits!

But my life and my choices no matter how limited they might have been due to circumstances but then maybe I should start a thread on how tough and unfair this society is between those who have and those who don't..?

Yes, but the thread evolved into the crap you and Beanie posted:

Have to agree beanie with this: "Any teacher doing more than an average of 45 hours per week is either a martyr or incompetent".

So your point is that either that's true, or I should be a cleaner?

Strange, strange logic.