AIBU to think that when all things are considered, teachers are on the equivalent of NMW?

[Glossynotflossy]

The extra time spent at home planning, making reources, time spent buying resources (out of your own pocket) basically means that teachers, in reality, are on the equivalent or just above NMW for all the work outside of the actual classroom?

[OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos]

I see where you're coming from, and teachers are very much undervalued IMO.

But there are wonderful sides to teaching as well as the downsides, and good stuff probably outweighs the bad stuff for many. Although I guess that will depend on the particular school and colleagues that a teacher has.

[OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos]

Purr, teachers don't get to stay in bed late on inset days, they still have work that needs to be done!

[purrpurr]

Apologies, Outraged, some teachers I know were given an inset day to do Christmas shopping recently, so I just assumed...

[LauriesFairyonthetreeeatsCake]

Depends on the subject, school and level of responsibility. DH was teaching 8 subjects in his last school and working 70 hours a week for 37k plus half the holidays (so he only took 6 weeks holiday over the year). That probably worked out at much less than the nmw.

Now in a college his workload/teaching load is less.

[purrpurr]

Echt, you're saying that this is only about teachers, but as soon as you try to make one group out to be disadvantaged, the mature response is to try to discuss that, to say, is this group really disadvantaged? Well, actually, when we compare the standards this group has to put up with against normal standards for other groups at the current time, no, they're not disadvantaged - and here's why.

Of course, if this post is just to simply say, I think teachers are on NMW after we deduct costs associated with the profession, the end, thanks for reading, then okay - but it shouldn't be online in an area where it will be discussed, surely.

[LauriesFairyonthetreeeatsCake]

And teaching has changed an enormous amount even over the last 10 years, the ridiculous paperwork is insane (as have other jobs obviously)

[purrpurr]

Ridiculous paperwork for teachers - I wonder if the level of ridiculous paperwork expected from midwives has grown at the same rate?

[cory]

I think teachers have this idea that everybody else gets home at the end of the day and puts their feet up. Not true ime. Unpaid overtime is a fact of life in many, many jobs, many of which pay less than teaching.

As a HE lecturer I only work a 4 day week- but that's because I'm on a 3 day contract! My colleagues who are fulltime do work over the weekends, late in the evenings and often spend their holidays in research libraries. Not to mention that their student loans will be higher (to pay for postgraduate studies) and they will often have to spend many years on temporary contracts (which tend to be badly paid) and write in their spare time without funding, because you don't get a proper job until you have a list of publications. Teaching planning becomes more efficient as you get older, but research never does- and we are expected to do a lot of that these days.

Not complaining- it's still an incredibly cushy job compared to what a lot of people do.

Unlike dh's workmates I get to spend my days in a warm and safe environment and am far less likely to be crippled by physical wear on my body by the time I get to retirement age. Oh- that's forgetting that dh's firm has just been detailed off for closure and his workmates won't actually have a job for very much longer!

Teachers never seem to recognise the enormous privilege of job security. To me, that seems a biggie.

[TheLightPassenger]

Laurie - 70 hours a week at minimum wage £6.18 per hour) comes to a lot less than 37K gross, more like 22K. Not that I wish to downplay that 70 hours a week work does sound miserable, am glad his current job involves a lot less extara work.

[FunBagFreddie]

YABU, there is no way you can equate your wages as a teacher to being on NMW. I'm sick of hearing teachers and civil servants moaning about how tough life is for them. You are actually in one of the few professions where you're looked after and your rights are protected. You get a pension, sick pay and decent holidays etc.

Your pay is actually quite good, and practically anyone else in the private sector would have to work their arse off for the same money.

It's called work for a reason, the clue is in the name.

[ATruthUniversallyAcknowledged]

Oh come on OP. This is not helpful. Yes, teachers work hard, yes we work longer hours than the 9-3 some people assume we do, yes we buy resources out of our own money, but we have a much higher earning potential than those stuck on nmw.

[laptopdancer]

cory I spent most of my HE days pounding the campus (always wore boots as it was a big walk between lectures) and standing up for 3 hr lectures. Teaching heavy load.

[laptopdancer]

bugger, wish I hadnt pressed post message.

One of my days was as follows :
9-11 lecturing
11-1 lecturing
1-2 seminar
2-5 lecturing
5-6 seminar


the students brought me coffee

[nokidshere]

YABU for a number of reasons..

1. it depends on the teachers salary and enhancements
   
2. plenty of teachers do not work over 8 hours a day
   
3. plenty of teachers do not spend as much time as others working outside of school hours
   
4. unpaid overtime is the norm for many jobs
   

If you take the lowest pay scale of 21588 (with no extra enhamcements) and cost that out for 52 weeks per year at 8 hours per day that would still be £10.37ph which I am pretty sure is not NMW.

If you base the 21588 on working 39 (term time) weeks per year for 8 hours per day it would be £13.83ph

so lets say a good teacher will work 8 hours a day for 5 weeks (in total) of their 13 weeks holiday they would then be earning £12.27ph

so no - teachers do not work for the NMW!

And, I have to say, any teacher who is paying out of their own pocket for resources (and yes I know ones that do) are bonkers. The reason schools get away with allowing that to happen is because the teachers enable them to do so.

I'm guilty of spending my own money for work stuff - as I am sure lots of people do in a variety of jobs. I am also guilty of putting more unpaid hours in outside work than is really necessary because I can, again, as lots of people do in a variety of positions.

Teachers work bloody hard, but then so do many other people. But, like all jobs, I know teachers who don't put in the extra hours to excess and don't spend their own money on resources and they are still good teachers.

I wouldn't be a teacher for all the tea in china (or a massive wage), I totally respect my childrens teachers for the dedication they have but the teachers I work for say they wouldn't do my job for all the tea in china and I am just as dedicated and earn a lot less money.

[Valdeeves]

I think teachers earn a decent wage - however the work load really depends on the school you work in. For example if you are in a school that has failed it's Ofsted the staff workload to improve will be huge. The same can be said for an Outstanding school - to maintain those grades you have to work very hard.
It also depends on how much of a natural you are at the job?
For me the workload was huge but the holidays created some balance.
With two children now and on mat leave I am seriously debating a career change.

[cory]

kim147 Mon 03-Dec-12 08:17:22
""Teachers never seem to recognise the enormous privilege of job security. To me, that seems a biggie. "

You've not seen the new OFSTED guidelines then? And capability proceedings? You're as good as your last observation and if your head wants you out, you're out."

Which is a lot better than losing your job regardless of how good you are because of your firm failing or a political decision to close down your department. Dh has never failed any capability assessments and got glowing references, but he still lost his job like everybody else.

The fact still remains that most teachers do not have to work for many years on temporary contracts, and that relatively few teachers lose their jobs due to capability proceedings. I'd call that job security compared to a good many other professions.

[stopthatmavis]

Live in the bloody real word op!

Some of us are single parents on nmw in manual jobs that leave us exhausted just so we can afford to live and put a roof over our dcs heads but don't come on here bleating about how unfair it all is!

[LoopsInHoops]

I now work in an international school abroad. The pay is similar (slightly less, as I took a demotion), but my job load is easily half, if not a third what it was in a UK state school, and easily six times less stressful.

Now I teach kids who want to learn, with no behaviour issues, who have parents who will back you up. Classes are a reasonable size (never more than 25) and we have enough resources to be able to teach efficiently. Never mind the pay, the stupidly needless paperwork attached to the job in the UK, this is why teachers need to be better recognised.

Teaching in UK secondary schools is soul destroying.

[cory]

Don't suppose this is the place to mention that lots of people work in jobs that are not only physically exhausting and involve plenty of overtime, but are also extremely dangerous. When a teacher is killed or even injured at work it makes national headlines. Not so when a trawlerman is lost at sea. It's not a job you make a fortune in, either.

Db used to work in the fishing industry. He got out when he realised how many of the people from the small village he lived in had been killed or crippled for life in the space of a few years.

Sometimes it's good to have a reality check.

[ithaka]

Nonsense (to the OP). My husband is a teacher and you cannot argue with the fantastic holidays (which effectively solve our out of term time child care arrangements).

People working full time on NMW, in hard grinding jobs, putting in long hourse with 3 weeks holiday a year are on NMW and it sucks to be them. Being a teacher does not compare.

[LoopsInHoops]

But, mavis, the difference is that teachers graduated from university, then went back to university again to train for their profession. Awful that anyone has to work on NMW (not high enough at all IMO) but on the whole they haven't spent 4-5 years at uni to get there. That's 4-5 years they could have been earning otherwise.

[mummymeister]

I earn less than the NMW. How come? because i am self employed and work a lot more hours/at all hours for not much financial reward. if this is really true OP then go into today, resign and really live on the NMW because then apparently you will feel better off. Going to do that then? thought not. as other posters have said start living in the real world. those of us in the private sector have been in recession since 2006 and this is our worst year yet. Posts like this absolutely make me see red because they are an insult to all those who arent working and really want to and all those people like mavis above who know what no money really is.